Derby DQ?

[damascus]

Some observations a day later.

Was any consideration given to DQ ing, Country House for coming in on the horses to his inside simultaneously with Max Sec coming out? in looking at the replay, Plat was doing some race riding and came over on #21 which i think was Bodeexpress and continued against LHT #18. Clearly one or both had the right to bitch about that as they were sandwiched from both sides.

was any consideration given to the fact that County house and WoW had the entire length of the stretch to run down Max but could not and did not do so. In spite of the danger that some horse(s) could have been in a serious incident, that did not happen and thus while we all fear it might have that should not have been a consideration at all. From my perspective (jaded or not) WoW and his jock did not back off and in spite of the horse coming over in very close quarters they did not take any evasive action e.g. slowing or pulling up, i truly think that is why Gaffalione did not object because he did not actually lose momentum. Looking at the tape after Max moves back toward the rail and bumps Code of Honor, Wow is still right there on even terms with Max and simply gets outrun. While he outran his odds he was never going to win that race.

the worst aspect of the whole decision from my perspective is that while there actually was no harm that took place (thankfully as all jocks and horses came back safely)the incredible effort of Max Sec was overshadowed by just flat out rewarding country house and his connections. That horse did not win the race. he had every chance to do so but could not. He was no impeded or interfered with but in fact HE interfered with some others.

Likewise war of will had every chance to win this race. AFTER the incident and coming out of the turn he was right alongside of Max. he was simply outrun and faded coupled with Tyler G wrapping up on him to finish out of the money. He did not lose the chance to win the race because of this incident and that is the "crime" of this decision. We witnessed an heroic effort by Max and he is the rightful winner of this race. NOT county house who had no excuses and still couldnt win. To reward the horse with this strained decision in the face of all of these years of history overlooking all kinds of egregious contact is what ruined it and has casual fans asking what is the point of this race if a non winner can simply be awarded the win....... The optics of this cannot be explained away.

It is impossible as a handicapper to account for a DQ especially by stewards who may think they are doing the best they can or are perhaps doing "justice" but the old saying of putting form before substance rings true here where a champion, his owners, trainer and jock are denied their rightful place in history.

last rant is that the lack of consistency in stewards rulings not just across the country but for goodness sake at any given track is what makes this so hard to take.

P.S. Tex, i would have mentioned it privately but could not find a way just wanted to express what a true CLASS individual you are with your respectful and cogent post yesterday. We might have a difference of opinion but i love that you can respect that and i will to the same. REgards

Dam

[bobtailnag]

The question was "What unwritten rule?"

[propro]

Ozzy, thanks for that info. What caused Maximum Security to bear out was changing to his right lead while still on the turn.

[eye123]

Bobtail, you and I have been doing this (horse players) for a lot of years. In your case 60, me 50+. Over the years we’ve witnessed a lot of derby’s. There are racing rules in place which determine what are and what are not infractions. They’ve been given a lot of leeway for 144 yrs in the derby. (in all those years, especially with 20 horse fields there have been few changes,when in reality if followed to the letter I couldn’t even guess how many dq’s there would be) It’s the reality. It something we expect. There will be horses cut off at the start,bumping and interference on the turns,bearing in,bearing out etc etc. This does not, nor has ever received the same scrutiny as a $10,000 claimer at the Fairgrounds, That's just the way it’s been.



As to your police scenario ,let me address one of my own. You’ve been married to your wife for 50 yrs, and each and every year she buys a dress at Easter. She comes home, heads to the bedroom, puts on the dress, comes out and asks”what do you think,do you like it?” And your response,of course is “honey I love it”. Today is Easter, and she does the same thing, only the dress is purple with yellow dots(you wish you were wearing blinkers instead of the four horse in the third at Santa Anita)but she stands before you(the love of your life)and says”what do you think,do you like it?” and you say what? “Honey I love the dress or the alternative response? …...I think you say “Honey,I love it”. She could wear a burlap sack and unless she’s allergic to burlap you would say the same thing. It’s just the way it’s always been.

Your Friend,

[cherokeescot]

May 5, 2019 10:41:22 GMT -5 gam said:

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the trainer usually made the call on whether or not the objection would be lodged.

Very unusual for trainer to make objection. It’s always the jockey who will tell one of the outriders as soon as he has passed the finishing line and this is how it is communicated to the stewards

[cherokeescot]

May 5, 2019 16:49:53 GMT -5 bobtailnag said:

The only comments made about Prat so far is that he was involved in what happen - and that is true. But he probably saw everything that happened and he was going to be right in the middle of what was about to happen. He's not only one of the best jockeys in North America, he's also one smart cookie. If the stewards got into the issue and what they were going to see could put him in the winner's circle. They did and he got the roses. Did he do anything bad? After all, he took a fellow jockey's FD win away from him. Tyler Gaffalione claims he didn't claim foul because why? Just to finish 5th? And because he works with these every day. What about Prat? He works with them everyday too. He wasn't going to win until he saw what Saez did. He found a loophole like you might find Income Tax forms. I have to hand it to him. His job was to win the KD and he found a way to do it. Two snaps up Flavin. You can ride my horses any day.

Prat rides almost exclusively on West Coast . Saez and Gaffalione are on East Coast primarily at Gulfstream . Probably not too much connection between Prat and the East Coast guys . Still as you say ,very smart move on his part which he admitted on the NBC interview before the amended result

[cherokeescot]

Best thing about the DQ- without a doubt it got some great respectful debate on here. Feel sorry for the Wests - no wonder they are now thinking about getting out of racing which would be a huge blow for the sport .

[cherokeescot]

Brilliant insights Ozzy . We are very lucky to have your presence on this board . One thing I cannot understand is that Churchill Downs makes hundreds of millions from this race every year . Why can’t they have a 20 horse starting gate and just use it once a year. Otherwise limit it to 14 runners and reduce the mayhem that we see at the start every year

[ozzy]

May 5, 2019 20:37:09 GMT -5 propro said:

Ozzy, thanks for that info. What caused Maximum Security to bear out was changing to his right lead while still on the turn.

Pro Gary mentioned specifically that he switched to his read lead because in his opinion he shied away from water glare on the track.
Saez said it was the crowd noise, while someone else said he likely jumped a tire track (disagree with that one).  Personally agree with Gary but splitting hairs.

Still the horse was much the best and impressed the hell out of me with how he rebroke again when challenged.  Stewards followed the letter of the law but maybe the rule needs to be updated to allow for more opinion/judgement rather than a DQ in such a situation.  Now had the objection been lodged by War of Will I might have a totally different feeling.  Too bad it sounds like we won’t see Maximum Security in the Preakness.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2019 19:49:14 GMT -5 bobtailnag said:

The question was "What unwritten rule?"

Yup, or a " higher bar set " for racing ....maybe what jock nakatani did should be approved and other incidents jock do to each other should be be allowed and forget the disqualification and any penalties ....lol..or trainers using drugs on thier horses because they have yet to figur out what the drugs are but show up after the race....lol..etc...I know of vets who were always looking for a new stimulant in the old days, lol...surely that does not happen any more, lol...!!! 

[Deleted]

Besides, the owners of the disqualified horse are taking thier grievances to Court....amazing...!!!...and totally silly...now THIS act is a to set an Higher bar set , indeed...lol...and yet they probably have won a few disqualifications in thier horse racing history ...and those that they won did not really endanger the horses in behind etc...lol...a silly attempt...this great stable of ownership by the owners should write it off and move on...besides which, if they change the out come there will be many folks who lost a lot af money and those who won will also go to court...lol..sad indeed...seems like a black eye to the sport is about to happen...an silly act for sure...

[shoes]

May 5, 2019 21:16:59 GMT -5 cherokeescot said:

Best thing about the DQ- without a doubt it got some great respectful debate on here. Feel sorry for the Wests - no wonder they are now thinking about getting out of racing which would be a huge blow for the sport .

I've always liked Gary West. during the 5 years that I lived in Dallas he was a regular contributor to a local radio show that discussed thoroughbred racing. He always struck as a fair and thoughtful guy.

[big18741]

Inquiry should have been the first thing that happened followed by the rider/riders objection.

It was significant enough to the naked eye during the actual running of the race for stewards to put up the inquiry sign first.
Whether they leave him up or take him down is another story.

I was watching with a buddy who was all in on Max and when he came over on WOW said Uh Oh.
Even he knew there might be an issue post race.

Unless I'm wrong about procedure-how do the stewards not put up an inquiry first instead of waiting for the jocks to put a hold on the race to follow up with the inquiry? Clear as day there was something to be looked at.

[elkurzhal]

You can't go from just off the rail to the 6 path...  It's unsafe and even if you have the best horse, you get DQ'd to discourage future crap like this. 

People who are upset, should be.  Not at the stewards, but at Luiz Saez.  Who looked over his shoulder, knew horses were there, and allowed his horse to run over them.   How it didn't result in a horrible spill still amazes me.  How you can be in front of 18 horses on the the biggest day in racing and hold it's precarious future in such flippant disregard is even more amazing.       

 

[gam]

Elk: that's a great view and I wasn't aware that he veered out that much. One horse/trainer that can't complain is Code of Honor who seemingly got the classic Churchill "golden rail" trip and still couldn't run down MS.

As to the "unwritten rule": this was posted on the Thorograph forum:

One dissenting voice on the backstretch was another Hall of Famer trainer, five-time Derby winner Bob Baffert. During the race, Baffert stood in the saddling paddock, where he watched American Pharoah win the 2015 Derby and near the small room where he watched Justify win it a year ago. Baffert suggested that the Derby is just a different race from all others, and that everyday rules should not always apply. “No one ever calls an objection in the Derby,” Baffert told me Sunday afternoon, by text. “It’s always a roughly run race. Twenty-horse field. I have been wiped out numerous times, but that is the Derby. I can see by the book why they did it. But sometimes you’ve got to take your ass-kickings with dignity.”

[tc]

best part of this video is how Max battles back after being headed (after going wide on the turn and then straightening out)...by far the best.

absolutely no chance WOW gets passed even without the wide turn by Max...no point even talking about LRT and his chances in this race...with or without the "interference".

I cannot believe I'm with NO POLITICS on this one! The best athlete did not win the race. As for it being due to political correctness, well that is certainly a novel perspective from the Prez.

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 10:59:19 GMT -5 elkurzhal said:

You can't go from just off the rail to the 6 path...  It's unsafe and even if you have the best horse, you get DQ'd to discourage future crap like this. 

People who are upset, should be.  Not at the stewards, but at Luiz Saez.  Who looked over his shoulder, knew horses were there, and allowed his horse to run over them.   How it didn't result in a horrible spill still amazes me.  How you can be in front of 18 horses on the the biggest day in racing and hold it's precarious future in such flippant disregard is even more amazing.       

 

...that is what I saw as well...thanks for the tape...most folk have yet to see it...lol..

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 11:07:20 GMT -5 gam said:

Elk: that's a great view and I wasn't aware that he veered out that much. One horse/trainer that can't complain is Code of Honor who seemingly got the classic Churchill "golden rail" trip and still couldn't run down MS.

As to the "unwritten rule": this was posted on the Thorograph forum:

One dissenting voice on the backstretch was another Hall of Famer trainer, five-time Derby winner Bob Baffert. During the race, Baffert stood in the saddling paddock, where he watched American Pharoah win the 2015 Derby and near the small room where he watched Justify win it a year ago. Baffert suggested that the Derby is just a different race from all others, and that everyday rules should not always apply. “No one ever calls an objection in the Derby,” Baffert told me Sunday afternoon, by text. “It’s always a roughly run race. Twenty-horse field. I have been wiped out numerous times, but that is the Derby. I can see by the book why they did it. But sometimes you’ve got to take your ass-kickings with dignity.”

Imagine that folks think that way...lol..they are selling foolishness and stupidity  as owners if he said that...sad...no wonder horse racing is a losing sport...( perhaps the k d etc is / are just a tradition to party and get drunk like playoffs are in other sports finals...lol..).. So throw out all rules ...do a Roman thing, let the jocks whip the other jocks in the race etc and do all the interference possible and thus let the race begin...) maybe only the owners or trainers should ride in the race on thier horses...guess they do not like the idea of becoming a cripple etc because the rules are meant to keep Ass-kicking out of the race that folks bet on...sad...if he said that...so he has a lot against a lot of folks...lol...

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 11:23:22 GMT -5 @bpiets said:

May 6, 2019 11:07:20 GMT -5 gam said:

Elk: that's a great view and I wasn't aware that he veered out that much. One horse/trainer that can't complain is Code of Honor who seemingly got the classic Churchill "golden rail" trip and still couldn't run down MS.

As to the "unwritten rule": this was posted on the Thorograph forum:

One dissenting voice on the backstretch was another Hall of Famer trainer, five-time Derby winner Bob Baffert. During the race, Baffert stood in the saddling paddock, where he watched American Pharoah win the 2015 Derby and near the small room where he watched Justify win it a year ago. Baffert suggested that the Derby is just a different race from all others, and that everyday rules should not always apply. “No one ever calls an objection in the Derby,” Baffert told me Sunday afternoon, by text. “It’s always a roughly run race. Twenty-horse field. I have been wiped out numerous times, but that is the Derby. I can see by the book why they did it. But sometimes you’ve got to take your ass-kickings with 

[Deleted]

If Baffort's and other owners / trainers views follow the same line , I agree that horse racing should be eliminated in California...I wonder if the gov. Folk in Califonia will show that rules are not being applied as fair even in the minds of trainers comments and owners and thus cause a rift that hurts the horse racing industry...and the Breeders Cup is being run at S A this year...lol..I do not think I will be betting these races or others again run at S A...( watched a bad call for a disqualification in one of the final races by temp Stewart's or underlings yesterday...) but I did win a bigger payout ...lol..

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 11:26:26 GMT -5 @bpiets said:

May 6, 2019 11:23:22 GMT -5 @bpiets said:

Imagine that folks think that way...lol..they are selling foolishness and stupidity  as owners if he said that...sad...no wonder horse racing is a losing sport...( perhaps the k d etc is / are just a tradition to party and get drunk like playoffs are in other sports finals...lol..).. So throw out all rules ...do a Roman thing, let the jocks whip the other jocks in the race etc and do all the interference possible and thus let the race begin...) maybe only the owners or trainers should ride in the race on thier horses...guess they do not like the idea of becoming a cripple etc because the rules are meant to keep Ass-kicking out of the race that folks bet on...sad...if he said that...so he has a lot against a lot of folks...lol...comes to mind if what baffort stated is true that he possibly lost many a gambler a lot of money over the years by not claiming foul ....something to muse on...looks like another slap in the face to the gambler of horse racing...comment on what Baffort apparently stated...if he did...sad...

[quickcall]

I don’t believe Saez was at fault for the horse bearing out. No jockey in their right mind would make a deliberate move like that. He straightened the horse out immediately and the horse kicked arse.

Despite everything, WOW was right back on track and looked like he was gonna run by Max again, but did not have enough. I believe WOW may have been this year’s wise guy horse.

It’s just a shame, that was one hell of a run by whom I think is the best 3 yr old horse in training right now.

Would have been interesting to see the Steward’s decision had Max been trained by Baffert.

[5wide]

I liked Max from soon after the Florida Derby. Had him at 14-1 ante post at William Hill. I'm absolutely gutted about being right about the horse and ending up in a deficit for the race . So many conflicting feelings right now, but in the end right or wrong, the decision has been made, and I lost my bet. I probably wont bet a horse race all week , but come the weekend , I know the itch will come back and I'll be throwing my dollars away again. I need to find another hobby.

[dblakers]

A few years ago, I cannot remember exactly when or the exact race, the exact horse, but it was one of the Dubai Races. A Goldophin horse was clearly interfered with and came second I believe. The jockey objected and they showed the process of the jockeys talking to the stewards and the review process. All of a sudden one of the Shieks came in and stopped it. I am just assuming that he knew it was a big race and he did not want to win like that. Does anyone else remember this?

[tc]

May 7, 2019 1:21:12 GMT -5 dblakers said:

A few years ago, I cannot remember exactly when or the exact race, the exact horse, but it was one of the Dubai Races. A Goldophin horse was clearly interfered with and came second I believe. The jockey objected and they showed the process of the jockeys talking to the stewards and the review process. All of a sudden one of the Shieks came in and stopped it. I am just assuming that he knew it was a big race and he did not want to win like that. Does anyone else remember this?

I don't recall the episode but I am going to venture a guess that the shiek didn't need the money 

[spiderjohn]

and over there no wagering involved

[ozzy]

So now there's a shooter (photographer) on the grassy knoll (inside the turf rail at the 1/4 pole)

I also read there's new video West has validating his claim that War of Will is the one who caused all the interference and fouled his horse? I son'r know but this one might grow legs given Tyler G was just coming back from serving 3 days on Saturday.

[eye123]

The video in question:

[cherokeescot]

Ozzy, is there a database where you can find which jockeys are suspended and why. Seems to be a pretty obvious improvement in horse racing data that would be simple to implement. Will Javier Castellano and Luis Saez be punished by CD for their Oaks and Derby disqualifications ? 

[eye123]

From the video it shows Bodexpress taking up prior to the other incident(what looks like the one coming over) maybe why War of Will rider mute ?