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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 7:55:39 GMT -5
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Post by cherokeescot on May 5, 2019 7:55:39 GMT -5
Do you really think Maximum Security cost Long Range Toddy a placing ? No way was Long Range Toddy finishing in the top five. (I’m still amazed that the Stewards did not call an Inquiry immediately after the race and basically had Jon Court not lodged an objection the result would have stood. Pretty embarrassing for the “winning” connections to be interviewed on tv after the race without even a hint of a possible change in the result and shocking for the decision to take over twenty minutes (not sure of exact time between race finish and official result) .
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shoes
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Post by shoes on May 5, 2019 8:03:15 GMT -5
Wrote this elsewhere. Think it would behoove players to look at adjudications the same way they do any other part of the game, with percentages. I felt the 7 stayed up 80% of the time in the kyd. If not the kyd he comes down 80% of the time. This was the 20% of the time he came down. 90 minutes later yours truly was dq'ed out of a pick 3 in SA10 for a minor infraction. Spent next to nothing, so no big loss, but the will pay was good. I felt the 9 stayed up 60% of the time. Today was the 40% of the time he came down. With both I've seen more stay up and less go down. More art than science to be sure. Telling you this for your own good. Believe me. When dq'ed, it hurts a lot less to think like a calculator. This ^^^ I too have been on both sides of this many times over the years. I had no financial interest in this one but I was surprised he came down, but at the same time think it was appropriate. What got me as a neutral observer was how clueless NBC Sports was led by Jerry Bailey. For a HOF, all time great, he continues to underwhelm as an analyst (wish Migliore or Stevens had his spot). Jerry could have stepped in an given the "cost a placing standard", as well as pointing out that it was conceivable that more than one horse was at issue. Instead he used the "did the best horse win" standard?" This was a little like a foul at the end of game 7 of the NBA finals with the trailing team by a point with the ball. People argue all of the time whether a different standard should apply.I am very sympathetic to the bettors who had Max and to Saez, who I don't think was to blame. Watching on TV as my buddy said there might be an inquiry or objection immediately after they crossed the line, I knew he was right, as I heard the crowd murmuring as Donna Barton Brothers was interviewing Saez on horseback. Yet after that they still go to Servis, without comment on the objection. I could tell he was aware of it by the way he kept looking up and past the interviewer.
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Post by frangooch on May 5, 2019 8:11:39 GMT -5
The replay Pete posted of Max’s leg hitting Will’s twice changed my mind. That was a hair away from two horses going down tragically, or worse. The right call, I now think. Still took too long.
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gam
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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 8:28:23 GMT -5
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Post by gam on May 5, 2019 8:28:23 GMT -5
I think it was a matter of timing. WOW was making a move that frequently leads to a win when MS came out and WOW literally ran up into him. He was fortunate to stay on his feet. If WOW had already gotten partially alongside MS when MS came out maybe they bump a bit but unless severe the outcome on the track would probably stand. We see that all the time. It’s unfortunate that the DQ ends up favoring a horse that really didn’t deserve to win. For all involved it’s unfortunate that MS drifted as I would have liked to see if WOW would’ve won the race fair and square.
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Post by hezethebest on May 5, 2019 8:35:45 GMT -5
Give me 60-40 on every coin flip...I'd be a rich man. LOL! All I meant was at 60/40 it wouldn't surprise me if it went either way. I've seen some where I was 90/10 go the opposite way.
LL
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Post by thunderbolt on May 5, 2019 8:53:05 GMT -5
Take a look at the 2014 Derby with California Chrome, overall a physical derby , but especially in the stretch run where #14 Danza brutally cut off multiple horses to get a lane and finish third. I needed him to get up to third for the super, was sure he was going to be set down, they left him up. So, sometimes you get a no-call, yesterday they made a call on a far less egregious move. Right, wrong, c'est la vie, but trying to make the case that the Churchill Stewards consistently enforce standards is not borne out by evidence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 9:45:10 GMT -5
Spider, there was no objection by the #1. Objections were by the #18 Long Hot Toddy and the eventual winner who did not appear to be impacted at all. Maximum Security was placed 17th behind Long Hot Toddy. Not the outcome racing needed or wanted. I would never have the jock on the one ride any of my horses because of him not placing a foul call in where as he would any other time...sad...and would have won the claim....some thing is not right here and smells for sure...so stay away from betting any of his horses in the future...but it was an obvious foul because the horse shied and not the jocks fault in any reasonable way...but it is interesting that one of the announcers suggested something like this might happen because of the crowd ....before the race ....guess the crowd was just to close to the race...maybe change that...lol... <<>>>>but is time to interview the jock on the one...Tyler gaffalione...this will tell the story and for not so doing fine him for a good spell from racing as it is he who ends up giving the racing industry a black eye...and he does tend to ride some good mounts..
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Post by spiderjohn on May 5, 2019 10:38:16 GMT -5
Incredible amount of bad press coming from everywhere including NO POLITICS ! A lot of print by quite a few who don't follow racing. I play races often--usually attending the big days--I was @ CD all weekend and had a great time as always despite the early Friday and late Saturday rain. I experienced 250,000+ others having a great time also. The dq does not alter my thinking at all. Outside the track immediately following, the race and decision was old news to the casual fans--they didn't care much. Unfortunately the "best horse" caused a lot of problems and danger behind him before straightening to draw off. Could #1 or someone else have finished better? Probably so. #1 seemed to be making the most serious move yet didn't claim foul? Was #7 the best horse? Probably so. We now have a Derby winner who otherwise can't win anywhere.
good points, tc, bev and many others.
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gam
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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 10:41:22 GMT -5
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Post by gam on May 5, 2019 10:41:22 GMT -5
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the trainer usually made the call on whether or not the objection would be lodged.
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tc
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Post by tc on May 5, 2019 11:17:15 GMT -5
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ziggy
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Post by ziggy on May 5, 2019 11:28:58 GMT -5
To me it looks like 7, 1 clip right rear, left front heels. I didn't see much drifting from the 2 angles that I saw until after this happened. I wish they had another shot.
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gam
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Post by gam on May 5, 2019 11:42:21 GMT -5
On the NBC broadcast they showed it several times and they commented about a water channel on the racing surface, apparently made by the harrows or tractor tires. He starts out well inside of it and ends up outside of it.
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Post by Badactor on May 5, 2019 11:49:00 GMT -5
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Post by spanky126 on May 5, 2019 12:05:55 GMT -5
In what I can only describe as the ultimate Cooler effect, I had the 7 across the board and knew in my heart of hearts what the decision was going to be well before they handed it down. If anyone ever doubted a Cooler Effect exists...well, lets just say it flared up yesterday. The ONLY time a DQ has been called in the history of the race in over a century? I think I'll become a New England Patriots fan. Sorry Hoop. :>)
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Post by spanky126 on May 5, 2019 12:12:37 GMT -5
Hey TC...surely you agree we have an insane child running this country. And I'm not calling you Shirley. Maybe NO POLITICS will have his Attorney General investigate...wait...oh..never mind. Barr has his hands full right now.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on May 5, 2019 13:37:50 GMT -5
"to those who say a foul is a foul, I guess the Kentucky Derby is "just" a horse race "
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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 14:06:04 GMT -5
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Post by Five wide on May 5, 2019 14:06:04 GMT -5
Does the DQ affect Max's stud value?
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tex
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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 14:09:56 GMT -5
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Post by tex on May 5, 2019 14:09:56 GMT -5
From Nicole Russo on DRF after interviewing Mark Casse:
War of Will probably on to Preakness, and more thoughts from Casse War of Will, who crossed the line eighth in the Kentucky Derby after his incident with Maximum Security, and was elevated to seventh with the disqualification of the latter, was in good order at trainer Mark Casse's barn this morning. The colt emerged with only one superficial nick on his right front leg. He's now considered likely to head on to the Preakness Stakes in two weeks.
"He's jumping up and down, it's like he didn't do anything [yesterday]," Casse said. "I think he probably will [go to the Preakness]. I wouldn't doubt you'll have the biggest Preakness field you've had in awhile, because of all ther stuff that happened, and because of the [sloppy] racetrack. ... I'm sure there's gonna be lots of people wanting another chance."
Here's what else Casse had to say the morning after.
On watching the incident in the race: "I said a very bad word at that quarter pole. I see him moving, and I looked up, and I said a bad word ... and I looked, and there's a camera right in front of me."
On why jockey Tyler Gaffalione didn't claim foul, and how he feels about riders having to claim foul in general: "When Tyler came back, he said he clipped heels. He said how he didn't go down, he didn't know. And we talked for a second about [claiming foul]. But we didn't feel - what, so we could be sixth? I don't think riders should have to claim foul. I think it's up to the stewards to make those decisions. [Jockeys], you want them to work every day beside each other and get along. Do you think [if I'm a rider], I'm gonna take the biggest race of [another rider's] life away? So I can be sixth? They shouldn't put the riders in that predicament. These are their friends. They ride with them every day." "I would say if there was any mistake yesterday - and I have to say, I have the highest respect for the stewards - it was the inquiry sign should have gone up as soon as they passed the wire. ... I was actually kind of surprised it wasn’t up.”
On the disqualification: "I feel sorry for the Wests. I feel sorry for Gary Barber, because our horse was ranging up. He may have beat us, but it was gonna be a race. I feel sorry for Luis Saez. I feel sorry for Jason Servis. I feel sorry for Bill Mott, because that's not the way he wanted to win the Kentucky Derby. But should the horse have come down? Absolutely."
On avoiding disaster: "I don't feel sorry for Mark Casse, because I have War of Will this morning." "He's just such an athlete. Horse racing should be happy that was War of Will put in that situation, because he he goes down, I think it would have been the biggest disaster. It's not like it's a six-horse field with four horses behind him. There were 18 behind him. It would have been ... "
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tex
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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 14:17:30 GMT -5
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Post by tex on May 5, 2019 14:17:30 GMT -5
Casse has it right. Stewards should have put up the inquiry sign - I am sure a lot of us thought the same thing. I agree that once it is run you are asking a jock to take away the biggest “win” of a peers career so you can finish 5th. Certainly an unenviable position. You just don’t do that in the biggest race in the world when you have stewards who are licensed and paid to intervene anyway when things unfold like they did. And I agree - the horse should have come down. Unfortunate for a lot of folks all the way around. Shame on the way it was handled by the stewards - they should have handled it better.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on May 5, 2019 15:02:16 GMT -5
Tex, I agree,the stewards should of posted the inquiry immediately if they thought the infraction warranted it.[multiple camera angles and six eyes watching the race] (The Kentucky Derby is not "just" a horse race) But they didn't, and to add insult to the process Country House jock claims objection when it didn't affect his ride at all. (I guess he didn't understand, and War of Will's didn't (who if anybody should have it was him). Then to add insult to the whole thing 22 minutes to come to a decision.... If they want to go down this road how about horse infractions at the start(think we can get a dq every other year based on the rules)....145 yrs without a winner being dq'ed (says something).
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Post by bobtailnag on May 5, 2019 16:49:53 GMT -5
The only comments made about Prat so far is that he was involved in what happen - and that is true. But he probably saw everything that happened and he was going to be right in the middle of what was about to happen. He's not only one of the best jockeys in North America, he's also one smart cookie. If the stewards got into the issue and what they were going to see could put him in the winner's circle. They did and he got the roses. Did he do anything bad? After all, he took a fellow jockey's FD win away from him. Tyler Gaffalione claims he didn't claim foul because why? Just to finish 5th? And because he works with these every day. What about Prat? He works with them everyday too. He wasn't going to win until he saw what Saez did. He found a loophole like you might find Income Tax forms. I have to hand it to him. His job was to win the KD and he found a way to do it. Two snaps up Flavin. You can ride my horses any day.
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Post by dblakers on May 5, 2019 17:29:13 GMT -5
I agree Prat did nothing "wrong", but unwritten rules for the derby was broken. IF this was baseball he would be beamed in the head his next at bat.
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Post by otis0930 on May 5, 2019 17:59:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Tex...I couldn't understand why Gafflione didn't claim foul now I get it. Stewards not putting up the inquiry sign...wrong. Taking 22 minutes to decide the outcome?....wrong. Disqualifying Maximum Security...right.
If John Court on Long Range Toddy doesn't claim foul does Maximum security get placed behind Country House since that would have been the only claim of foul?
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Post by frangooch on May 5, 2019 18:05:02 GMT -5
It was a foul or it wasn’t. But if it was, who made the claim should be beside the point.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on May 5, 2019 18:08:17 GMT -5
Bobtail,why do you think the stewards did not put up the inquiry sign? Do you think they missed the incident? No they saw it, but for the jockey objection it would of stood. Now they had to look at it and make a decision. Three people, twenty two minutes.....and 144 yrs of Kentucky Derby history kaput. Next year if a jockey gets cutoff out of the gate will they apply the same standard? I doubt it. We get months of hype for this race from all the prep races(who has the points,who is on the bubble,who can go the distance etc etc Ad infinitum ) then we get two weeks of derby this and derby that, and every opinion under the sun. The Kentucky Derby is not any ordinary race, it's beyond that. So history dictates a standard, we broke that. 144 yrs, and we've seen some strange happening (worse then this). The standard is broken, let's apply the rules of racing to the derby fairly every year.(as if any old race) (20 horse fields I expect an infraction or two every year...lets dq them all equally) (yeah right, then this race is not so special)
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Post by diablo313 on May 5, 2019 18:17:54 GMT -5
Quick question from a newbie? Do stewards have any other options in setting result order? Seems odd Country gets the win when it was the other 1 or 2 that were impeded?
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ozzy
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Derby DQ?
May 5, 2019 18:20:24 GMT -5
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Post by ozzy on May 5, 2019 18:20:24 GMT -5
On site at CD obviously, battling exhaustion and a cold so apologies in advance but couldn’t help but chime in. Aside from being part of the connections themselves I don’t anyone had more access to what was said or not said than I did given I was tasked with getting them around after. Flav did ask the outriders to notify the stewards to put a hold on the race on the gallop back. This is the objection announced on track and was the only one I heard announced. He knew something happened in tight, said it maybe cost him a little momentum on the turn but really he had every chance late and couldn’t run by Maximum Security. Again he knew something happened and this was smart move on his part. Riders pull it all the time, just not in the Derby. Ultimately his objection against the winner was disallowed by the stewards.
Johnny V might have had a claim aganist Maximum Security as when corrected he came back down and some bumping did occur with COH but he did nothing to indicate an objection was on his mind. Had the finish been closer, perhaps but he knew he had been beaten for 2nd and Flav had already made the call so no need.
Tyler was lucky to stay up on War of Will who ran an amazing race but he really king of quit late. He wasn’t involved in the finish and I am sure all have watched trainer Mark Casse’s explanation today.
The rider on the 21 probably had the best case of any as he certainly checked when LRT came over. I wasn’t around them so not sure of the thinking.
Jon Court on LRT did lodge an objection which is what the stewards spent the most time reviewing. No doubt he was impacted. I think he was already finished and would have had no impact on the race but the rule is written as follows
"If a leading horse or any other horse in a race swerves or is ridden to either side so as to interfere with, intimidate, or impede any other horse or jockey, or to cause the same result, this action shall be deemed a foul.”
Seems pretty simple as certainly a foul occurred. the horse shied from something (noise, glare from water on the track, jumped a tire track?) and despite the fact that Maximum Security was a clear winner, the stewards had to follow the rule and allow the objection leading to the DQ. Two hall of game jockeys and former Derby winners (their names perhaps rhyming with Pay and Evens) explained their thoughts to me in the jocks room and had zero issue with the call. They hated it had to happen, didn’t feel it was any fault of the rider but it was the right call. If it is good enough for those two it is good enough for me!
Aside from that, people are idiots. It’s always chaotic trying to carry the roses from the winners circle to the museum directly through the exiting masses. This time was unlike any other as people screamed at us, maybe even spit at us and I dodged a beer can or two thrown at us. This with 5 fairly large guys carrying the garland surrounded by 8 uniformed officers.
I know folks are upset that stewards didn’t take questions after their statement (the right thing to do with possible legal action pending) but what no one knows is the threats that had already been made against them. How we had 6 state troopers out of sight when the media started hissing and how we spent another hour making sure all three were personally escorted safely to their vehicles. All of this because they followed the regulations as written. If anything they should have taken stronger action and posted the inquiry sign on their own instead of relying on the objection but I digress. I’ve known all 3 for many years and if you think it didn’t pain Barb to have to make that call, watch the announcement again and just look at her. I’ve seen many comments from other stewards at major tracks all in agreement. Talking heads who should know better, many misinformed or who do not understand the rules, and vocal minority of idiots seem to be the ones chattering the most.
24 Derbys doing this and love event seconds with the horses and many who devote their lives to care for them. The growing number of idiots in our society has me wondering if I’ll do 25 or just finally have an opportunity to enjoy a Derby party for the first time in my life.
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Post by bobtailnag on May 5, 2019 18:22:52 GMT -5
What unwritten rule? Is there a rule that prohibits jockeys to do everything legal hey can to win? I'm not an expert on all the rules of racing but I've been around awhile and never heard anything like that.
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Post by bobtailnag on May 5, 2019 18:46:02 GMT -5
Eye, if you see a crime being committed and the police don't see it, should you tell them? Not exactly the same scenario but it works as the example. As I stated in my original post that when someone lodged a "foul", the stewards now HAD to look at it. I have to assume they did not see the Seaz's horse "trip" the two behind it and that's why they didn't flash the "Inquiry". It might also be some of the reason for the longer that usual result.
You've always been pretty straight up in your posts but that "Three people, twenty two minutes.....and 144 yrs of Kentucky Derby history kaput." seem a bit over the top. One controversial occurrence taints the other 143 years of the Derby? Or am I missing the point you were trying to make? If so, my apologies sir.
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Post by dblakers on May 5, 2019 18:52:37 GMT -5
When do jockeys Object in the derby? 144 times and so many horses were bumped, cut off, impeded in one way or another and nothing. Why? Because all of these jocks understand that this is the Kentucky Derby and not just another race. They all race hard and are normally allowed to be a little more aggressive. Just my opinion.
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