Saffie Juiceph suspended

[1hooper]

May 4, 2023 11:44:42 GMT -5 1hooper said:

More scratches coming. This is biggest story at CD but keep an eye on the surfaces. Plenty of horsemen concerned, not Laurel level yet.

DRF
Stewards at Churchill Downs have granted a request by trainer Saffie Joseph Jr. to be allowed to scratch horses he trains from races at the track on Thursday and Friday, the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission said. Joseph also said that he intends to ask for permission to scratch three horses on the Saturday card, though not his entrant in the Kentucky Derby.

They chose not to make the track safer the last two days. Too tight.

[merasmag]

May 6, 2023 20:51:40 GMT -5 1hooper said:

May 4, 2023 11:44:42 GMT -5 1hooper said:

More scratches coming. This is biggest story at CD but keep an eye on the surfaces. Plenty of horsemen concerned, not Laurel level yet.

DRF
Stewards at Churchill Downs have granted a request by trainer Saffie Joseph Jr. to be allowed to scratch horses he trains from races at the track on Thursday and Friday, the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission said. Joseph also said that he intends to ask for permission to scratch three horses on the Saturday card, though not his entrant in the Kentucky Derby.

They chose not to make the track safer the last two days. Too tight.

okie-dokie

May 4, 2023 at 12:45pmQuoteEditPost OptionsPost by merasmag on May 4, 2023 at 12:45pm

1hooper Avatar

May 4, 2023 at 11:44am 1hooper said:



keep an eye on the surfaces

what ABOUT the surface(s)?

are jocks ready to walk like at laurel?

[merasmag]

my god...
no wonder i drink

[mysaladdays]

May 6, 2023 20:51:40 GMT -5 1hooper said:

May 4, 2023 11:44:42 GMT -5 1hooper said:

More scratches coming. This is biggest story at CD but keep an eye on the surfaces. Plenty of horsemen concerned, not Laurel level yet.

DRF
Stewards at Churchill Downs have granted a request by trainer Saffie Joseph Jr. to be allowed to scratch horses he trains from races at the track on Thursday and Friday, the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission said. Joseph also said that he intends to ask for permission to scratch three horses on the Saturday card, though not his entrant in the Kentucky Derby.

They chose not to make the track safer the last two days. Too tight.

Hooper, I never understood why they make the surface rock hard for these races.  I assume it is so the "times" are fast on paper.  

It's really not necessary and not good for horse's legs to run on asphalt-like dirt highways. 

So what IS the purpose of doing that, instead of leaving a little more CUSHION in the track?

[mysaladdays]

It must have been Saffie who ordered track maintenance to remove as much cushioning as possible, and scrape and roll it so it was as hard as cement. :sarcasm:

[spiderjohn]

so many factors
track changes significantly throughout the day when you start races at 10:30 am and run the last race at 8:30pm---it has more moisture early on, and dries as the day/sun/temp increases. Surface more loose late in the day without added moisture. Contrary to what many think, imo it plays more to speed with moisture--harder to close outside later in the day. At Del Mar etc, the tides and sea level factors, especially inside/outside lanes.

yesterday was pretty much a drug-free day? Horses coming from all over after running on bleeder and misc medications
trainers running over-raced and unsound horses
the stress of running against very strong competition
pinhead riders who lose what is left of their mind on big national days
injuries--lesser and severe microscoped at the top, not so much at lower and weekday levels

too easy to blame it all on a track surface

jmo

[spiderjohn]

I also think that you have to look at how the claiming game is played today. Horses are being claimed like never before, and wheeled back quickly at the same or lower price since purse increases play in to this methodology.

Hard to see the horses’ interest being represented vs the opportunity to claim win and dump to the next owner and trainer.

I see it happening today with QUICK TO BLAME, a runner of mine in our claiming contest. This horse is blatantly being sacrificed for a quick and probably small profit.

[dblakers]

Personally think Saffie got a raw deal. I mean you are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. What exactly is he guilty of? Anyone can speculate, but you are suppose to have some type of proof before punishment. 7 horses died since opening day, 2 by Saffie. What about the other 5? Anyone else get suspended? And I am not saying he is innocent, I am saying I need some proof. They couldn't find anything concrete in the blood. 

[cherokeescot]

Concrete would slow the horse down , they are more sophisticated than that nowadays. My understanding is that the other 5 horses broke down on the track with life ending leg injuries . Saffie’s two horses unexplainably collapsed.

[dblakers]

Saffie has a big stable. Run's lots of horses and I have never seen his horses do this before. Now if this was Baffert maybe my opinion would be different. Has Saffie had this type of thing happen before?

[merasmag]

they did "inexplicably" break down...have they confirmed it couldn't possibly have been viral? i just don't know how stupid a "low-level big-time" trainer has to be after baffert and dutrow

[1hooper]

May 8, 2023 15:48:48 GMT -5 dblakers said:

Personally think Saffie got a raw deal. I mean you are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. What exactly is he guilty of? Anyone can speculate, but you are suppose to have some type of proof before punishment. 7 horses died since opening day, 2 by Saffie. What about the other 5? Anyone else get suspended? And I am not saying he is innocent, I am saying I need some proof. They couldn't find anything concrete in the blood. 

The EPO molecule becomes undetectable to current testing in a horse’s body within hours or minutes, depending on the quantity, even though the key benefit of the drug — the enhanced red blood cells that it produces — lasts for about 120 days, said Kenneth McKeever, professor of animal science at Rutgers University.

But the New York Equine Drug Testing Lab and most similar facilities across the U.S. can only test for three varieties of EPO, while scientific literature cites 82 kinds of EPO worldwide, he said.

Researchers suspect that some racing participants have shifted to using substances that spur the horse’s own natural production of EPO in the spleen instead of injecting EPO directly into the body, McKeever said.

[shoes]

May 8, 2023 15:48:48 GMT -5 dblakers said:

Personally think Saffie got a raw deal. I mean you are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. What exactly is he guilty of? Anyone can speculate, but you are suppose to have some type of proof before punishment. 7 horses died since opening day, 2 by Saffie. What about the other 5? Anyone else get suspended? And I am not saying he is innocent, I am saying I need some proof. They couldn't find anything concrete in the blood. 

I had thought that 5 of the 7 involved Muscular-skeletal injuries, while Saffie's dropped dead essentially, heart issues?

[ozzy]

Think there are lots of things impacting various injuries and scratches and folks are getting the various issues jumbled up.

Several scratches resulted from horses coming from the west coast, on the same flights or housed together. These are the horses that "spiked a fever." This is most certainly from something viral or bacterial and can result from exposure to different pathogens in new locales, especially with depressed immune systems following travel. Most will recover fine without issue.

1. Wild On Ice was injured last Thursday in a workout and was euthanized after being vanned to Rood and Riddle in Lexington for evaluation.
2. Code of Kings prior to the final race on opening night, flipped in the paddock several times, broke his neck and was euthanized. He never made the racing surface.
3. Take Charge Briana was injured in a turf race Tuesday and was euthanized after evaluation as the result of her injury.
4. Chloe's Dream - pulled up on the first turn in Race 2 on Derby Day, was vanned off, evaluated and euthanized as the result of her injury.
5. Freezing Point suffered an injury running in the Pat Day Mile, was vanned off, evaluated and euthanized as the result of his injury.

So 4 deaths resulting from injury on the track. I believe two (Wild On Ice and Chloe's Dream) made it to equine hospitals for evaluation before being euthanized. Take Charge Briana was running on the turf and Freezing Point, I am unsure what happened. Code of Kings was the result of an accident in the paddock pre-race and not a racing injury so 4 horses injured while racing.

The Saffie issues are things we typically do not see, post race, where a horse collapses and expires after completing the race. Have I seen it happen, yes, but never in consecutive race days, and never from the same trainer and same owner. Could be freak coincidence, could be something more but hopefully testing will tell and prove innocence or guilt. I can tell you Saffie agreed to scratch all horses sans Lord Miles in the Derby. Churchill wasn't happy with that so he scratched all horses, then Churchill suspended him after. He was not happy with that at all.

The state vet team was hypersensitive in my opinion in examining runners Friday and Saturday. Forte the most notable example but additionally there were a couple of other late vet scratches Oaks and Derby days. Two were horses (in early races on Friday if I remember correctly) also flipped in paddock, both in the saddling stalls, which is an immediate scratch. Three horses in a week with paddock issues is a bigger worry for me about the state of the track but I digress.... A couple other runners were late scratches as a result of vet decisions. I remember one clearly as was Talk of the Nation in the American Turf as the vet said he "bobbled in the post parade." I can tell you his connections were less than pleased, one of the owners a veterinarian herself.

I'd take anything the non-racing media is airing with a grain of salt. Is 7 injuries of any type and subsequent deaths a concern? Absolutely as 1 is too many. Just keep in mind, one was in training, one on the turf, one in the paddock, 2 collapsed after the race leaving 2 (3 if you count Wild On Ice) as racing injuries affiliated with the dirt surface.

[merasmag]

May 8, 2023 16:41:58 GMT -5 1hooper said:

May 8, 2023 15:48:48 GMT -5 dblakers said:

Personally think Saffie got a raw deal. I mean you are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. What exactly is he guilty of? Anyone can speculate, but you are suppose to have some type of proof before punishment. 7 horses died since opening day, 2 by Saffie. What about the other 5? Anyone else get suspended? And I am not saying he is innocent, I am saying I need some proof. They couldn't find anything concrete in the blood. 

The EPO molecule becomes undetectable to current testing in a horse’s body within hours or minutes, depending on the quantity, even though the key benefit of the drug — the enhanced red blood cells that it produces — lasts for about 120 days, said Kenneth McKeever, professor of animal science at Rutgers University.

But the New York Equine Drug Testing Lab and most similar facilities across the U.S. can only test for three varieties of EPO, while scientific literature cites 82 kinds of EPO worldwide, he said.

Researchers suspect that some racing participants have shifted to using substances that spur the horse’s own natural production of EPO in the spleen instead of injecting EPO directly into the body, McKeever said.

as sum1 who had to get up early to get 3 injections today from shoulder to back to below i have put my faith in them becuz i sorta have to. but if i dropped dead and broke my hip tomorrow when i hit the ground i would look at sumthing else first. cause and effect

[merasmag]

what is the ...i can't remember the medical word
contraindication? to epo?
my red blood cells are fat
sum bs about etoh

[1hooper]

* EPO is a peptide hormone that is produced naturally by the human body. It is released from the kidneys and acts on the bone marrow to stimulate red blood cell production. By injecting EPO, athletes aim to increase the concentration of red blood cells to boost their aerobic capacity.

* EPO abuse has serious health risks. By thickening the blood, EPO abuse can lead to an increased risk of heart disease, stroke and cerebral or pulmonary embolism. The drug has been implicated in the deaths of several athletes.

[merasmag]

having had a LONG talk with the pain doctor today about an epidural i don't want and knowing my chart better than my 10-15 doctors i would look at if trainers are giving their horselets () guinness or TOO much oats
seriously...blood problems come from a MULTITUDE of places

[1hooper]

Hearing Oaklawn trainer next.

[mysaladdays]

May 8, 2023 16:20:14 GMT -5 dblakers said:

Saffie has a big stable. Run's lots of horses and I have never seen his horses do this before. Now if this was Baffert maybe my opinion would be different. Has Saffie had this type of thing happen before?

Ah-h-h-h-h.   Brings back FOND MEMORIES about how Mubtaahij was not allowed to have his regular food!!......but Baffert's horses had their special feed perhaps. 

I was so against this, not allowing a horse to have his regular food. 

Do that with your dog and see what happens........not pretty. 

[ozzy]

May 9, 2023 17:01:04 GMT -5 1hooper said:

Hearing Oaklawn trainer next.

Yeah, hearing same.  Milkshake…. Ugh

[1hooper]

May 10, 2023 11:46:43 GMT -5 ozzy said:

May 9, 2023 17:01:04 GMT -5 1hooper said:

Hearing Oaklawn trainer next.

Yeah, hearing same.  Milkshake…. Ugh

Did you hear this Ozzy?

Maybe also found something worse in barn but can't confirm

[ozzy]

I heard milkshake but nothing else but to be fair, I’ve tried to tune out stuff this week to be honest….

[ozzy]

May 9, 2023 17:58:02 GMT -5 mysaladdays said:

May 8, 2023 16:20:14 GMT -5 dblakers said:

Ah-h-h-h-h.   Brings back FOND MEMORIES about how Mubtaahij was not allowed to have his regular food!!......but Baffert's horses had their special feed perhaps. 

I was so against this, not allowing a horse to have his regular food. 

Do that with your dog and see what happens........not pretty. 

What is this situation you are referring to?  I’ve never heard of a time in the US when horse feed could not be imported.  Maybe I missed it but the only time I can recall a feed issue during my 25 year career was when the Olympics where held in Australia in 2000.  I worked with the nutrition company then who helped plan out everything because those imports were not allowed into the country unless they were irradiated, something that cost a considerable amount of money to do.  


We even put companies together to share formulations so even though the bag might be different, it was essentially the exact same diet.  ANd I’ve worked with folks all over the world to ship feed so genuinely curious.  The only reason I could think of is if some ingredient could possibly result in a positive test?

[merasmag]

this brandt article is something i've been sitting on for months...
cleaning up my tabs so posting it here
www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/pdf/tdn/tdn230203.pdf

[mysaladdays]

May 10, 2023 18:54:01 GMT -5 ozzy said:

May 9, 2023 17:58:02 GMT -5 mysaladdays said:

Ah-h-h-h-h.   Brings back FOND MEMORIES about how Mubtaahij was not allowed to have his regular food!!......but Baffert's horses had their special feed perhaps. 

I was so against this, not allowing a horse to have his regular food. 

Do that with your dog and see what happens........not pretty. 

What is this situation you are referring to?  I’ve never heard of a time in the US when horse feed could not be imported.  Maybe I missed it but the only time I can recall a feed issue during my 25 year career was when the Olympics where held in Australia in 2000.  I worked with the nutrition company then who helped plan out everything because those imports were not allowed into the country unless they were irradiated, something that cost a considerable amount of money to do.  


We even put companies together to share formulations so even though the bag might be different, it was essentially the exact same diet.  ANd I’ve worked with folks all over the world to ship feed so genuinely curious.  The only reason I could think of is if some ingredient could possibly result in a positive test?

Because I remember it being just one more "obstacle" that Mubtaahij had to face when he was here, (besides travelling, quarantine, different climate, etc.) and Mike DeKock being upset about it at the time.  (He was also shipped to Arlington, so had to train for the Derby on Synth instead of dirt , when they were expecting him to be in KY:)


"His usual feed isn’t registered with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, so he had to change to a different feed while in the United States. De Kock believes that is the most significant challenge to traveling, since changing feed is a significant change for a horse, especially before competing in a major race."

Approx. paragraph 15: 

www.americasbestracing.net/the-sport/2015-adaptable-mubtaahij-de-kock-take-unconventional-path-derby

Admittedly, I was a big Mubtaahij fan so I probably remember many details of his time here.  That horse was DEAD FIT.  I remember how everyone was gobsmacked at how he would go out and galloping, galloping, gallopoing...... every day.  

ANd.......no lasix.    Mubtaahij was the first horse in 10 years to do so, at the time.



Another thing I wanted to mention, and we can segway here, is many people saying that the Japanese horses would do better to use "American jockeys" proven on our shores. 

To that, I say:  Pletcher has entered 64 horses into the KY Derby, sometimes more than 1 horse entered in the race......and only won 2x.  Let's make a list of the horses he entered who didn't win, and put those American jockeys on the "yuck list".  LOL        How many Japanese horses have raced in our KY Derby?  When we get up to about 64 of their horses, then I will consider a fair comparison. 

[ozzy]

Interesting.... didn't recall that. Must have been something off the wall as nearly all major European feeds, especially those from the UK, are approved here. If not, there is nearly the exact formula available here that is there (ie Saracen there, Hallway here)

[mysaladdays]

May 11, 2023 10:37:54 GMT -5 ozzy said:

Interesting.... didn't recall that. Must have been something off the wall as nearly all major European feeds, especially those from the UK, are approved here. If not, there is nearly the exact formula available here that is there (ie Saracen there, Hallway here)

Also here:

"Unfortunately, I can’t travel one of my lads because of a regulation where they need professional flying grooms with them,” de Kock said. “Also we can’t bring our own feed into the USA, so he has to have a feed change, sadly. That doesn’t help matters. Normally when I go to Dubai I bring my own feed from South Africa. But anyway we’re still crackin’ on.”

cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2015/04/15/mubtaahij-leaves-for-america.aspx

At any rate, he did pretty good, had an amazing turn of foot, and could race on anything, synth, tapeta, dirt........but yes there is also the arduous travel/quaranteen/different grooms/climate etc. challenges.   And, unlike most of DeKock's horses, Mubtaahij wasn't used to shipping all over the world.  DeKock has won Grade One races on about 6-7 different continents, so I had big hopes for this horse. 


Which brings us to what can probably be called a "fact":   The KY Derby isn't anything like other international races, (Arc de Triomphe, Dubai World Cup, Hong Kong Cup, or Melbourne Cup.)    In that sense, it's a hybrid and I have never considered it a true international race.   Some said it was more liike NASCAR than Forumula One, and I agree with that.  


I made the comment about never-Lasixed for him because I've come to see that feature as somewhat of a designation for Class.  (Forte never had lasix his entire career, and a few others.   Last year the entire super high 5 was never-lasixed horses.   Ditto, Belmont winner. )   That is another reason I was a fan of Mubtaahij, because in this respect, he stood out alone having never-lasixed.   I personally consider that a extra point in a horses's favor. 

[merasmag]

did his winners test clean yesterday?

[1hooper]

May 10, 2023 11:46:43 GMT -5 ozzy said:

May 9, 2023 17:01:04 GMT -5 1hooper said:

Hearing Oaklawn trainer next.

Yeah, hearing same.  Milkshake…. Ugh

Robertino Diodoro, leading trainer at the recently concluded Oaklawn meet, will serve a 15-day suspension at the outset of the 2023-'24 season at the Hot Springs, Ark., track as a result of a total carbon dioxide (TCO2) finding above the permitted limit.
paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/robertino-diodoro-suspended-fined-for-oaklawn-tco2-violation/