Time to change the dates of the TC?

[bobtailnag]

[cherokeescot]

Absolutely .. there should only be one week between each race.

[bobtailnag]

... and they should add a 4th race to the Triple Crown

[spankyupinclass]

somebody give the baby his pacifier...

[Deleted]

how in the world does one find such an asinine post?
must u search for it?
and why?

[mysaladdays]

Is it time for the presenter to invest in some elocution lessons?

I couldn't understand a word he said, pronunciation and articulation like marbles in mouth.

Then,  the incessant crying of the baby in the background didn't help.

"Be the change....etc." seems appropriate here.

[bobtailnag]

Madam, since you asked your questions so graciously I will answer them.

"how in the world does one find such an asinine post?" "Asinine" is a personal judgement and I do not think the post to be asinine,, but I wish I had taken the time to learn why the poster thought the change was needing.

"must u search for it?" In this event, no I missent. In fact, I wasn't looking for it. I was looking for something else and that popped up as I scrolling.

"and why" Because maybe some might think a longer period between races would be safer for the horses or fresher horses make for a more competitive race - both.

Personally I no opinion on the issue.

[mysaladdays]

I think after a race like KY Derby a horse would need about 14-16 days before they start seriously working again.

I would give them another 2 weeks to get back to normal and get some meaningful works in before the Preakness.

Seems like 4 weeks would be "ideal" when you think about how horses are trained here nowadays.

I never gave it a whole lot of thought until this topic came up though.  Also given that I'm probably not the person to deliberate such things, as I'm really NOT into the "racehorse-as-gladiator" concept.  At all.  



Gold Trip ran the Caufield Cup at 1.5 miles (2400m) and I believe the Melbourne Cup is 16 days later......Gold Trip ran in both won The Melbourne Cup at 3200m (about 2 miles or almost 16F). But he is a known stayer, races on turf, not hard packed dirt, and probably has never had lasix in his entire life. All that good Danehill, Sadler's Wells and Kingmambo in him.   From memory, I think there was one horse in the race who came back in less than a week to run 2 miles.  

The *problem* with our Derby horses are that they are really not "stayers"......they are 9F type horses at base who can carry their speed a bit further. Maybe. Sometimes. Let's face it, we don't have a huge amount of long Classic distance races for them to practice with here. There isn't even much of a market for that type of horse here.......because it's not "quick money"

[spiderjohn]

While listening to this, I felt the same way as the child in the background.

[dblakers]

To make any changes to the Triple Crown would just be throwing out History. I have said it before on here and other forums. The only thing that changed with the thoroughbred is the money they race for. Back in the day horses ran, they ran a lot. Purses were smaller so connections felt they had to. It is the same for boxers. They fought a lot. Purses were smaller, so they had to. Now top boxer may fight 2 times a year. Look at basketball guys use to play back to back to back games, fly commercial, do their own laundry, cook their own meals. Now these guys barely play, cry about playing two days in a row. Everything is done for them. What changed? More money. Just my 2 cents on it.

[Deleted]

it has been rehashed ad nauseum on other forums...the tc schedule has been rearranged in many ways over the years, not only spacing but distances and i think even tracks. but it was almost always for good reasons

[shoes]

The biggest reason to change it isn't for we diehard fans, it is for the casual fans and whether we want to attract more of them on the theory that some additional of them might become diehard fans.

The Kentucky Derby gets so much attention, Derby parties, people draw names out of a hat, they become somewhat invested in the horses, then 2 weeks later, most of them aren't even running, When the Belmont doesn't feature a horse going for a triple crown, the casual fam cares not at all and ratings are abysmal. I'm not a Nascar fan but it would be like if the next big race after Daytona, most of the drivers were new (okay, maybe not the best of analogies).

Space the races further apart and restore the triple crown points bonus system, create a real incentive so that we could see a Mage- Two Phils rematch, or whatever.

[spiderjohn]

Added spacing between races does not guarantee getting more Derby starters to the Preakness. Derby running actually sorts out a lot of runners that didn’t belong in the first place. The spacing would allow more time for new runners to plan towards the Preakness, and often now, the Preakness winner didn’t even run in the Derby.

Also the Belmont is an entirely different type of race than either the Derby or the Preakness. Honestly I simply look at each of these race days as only semi-related entities. I am just glad to get a high quality race card in one location on one day. There is probably some merit to the TC point system to keep horses involved in the series, then again it might keep runners involved who honestly shouldn’t be there, and give you an overall points winner who didn’t finish first in any of the races.

Maybe the series would do best to walk away from pimlico(a bad track where no one honestly wants to travel to) and move to Florida or southern california(where people do like to visit).

The concept of doing this to attract and develop younger fans is unfortunately a non-starter imo. I look at the recent attempts to add live music and night racing, which both seem to alienate what fan base is left. I have been to multiple big race days followed by concerts, and I can say that the afterwards events are very poorly attended. Those playing the races can’t get out of there quick enough after a long day of wagering on longer spaced races, and the young crowd remaining for the after-event doesn’t wager and could care less about racing outside of the main feature race.

Not what a lot want to hear, however my experience throughout the last couple of decades traveling to the big race days.

Plus—-starting at 10:30am finishing 14 races at 8:30pm hardly plays to attracting new racing fans. Maybe plan the extra events adjacent to racetracks with co-mingled admission so those wanting to do so could bounce between to take a break from each situation?

[1hooper]

2020

6/20 Belmont 10 entries Tiz The Law
9/05 Derby 15 entries Authentic
10/03 Preakness 11 entries Swiss Skydiver

[mysaladdays]

May 14, 2023 19:25:08 GMT -5 spiderjohn said:

The concept of doing this to attract and develop younger fans is unfortunately a non-starter imo. I look at the recent attempts to add live music and night racing, which both seem to alienate what fan base is left. I have been to multiple big race days followed by concerts, and I can say that the afterwards events are very poorly attended. Those playing the races can’t get out of there quick enough after a long day of wagering on longer spaced races, and the young crowd remaining for the after-event doesn’t wager and could care less about racing outside of the main feature race.

I have never missed the Arkansas Derby for over 22 years, but after this year, may not attend again.   They did a great job attracting "the younger crowd"......the infield was open, it was lovely weather, there were food trucks, there was piped in music over there......and inside the grandstand there were a few neat little musical groups along the bottom floor like some mexican quartet, a brass quartet, etc.  

I describe it as a cross between a mini-KY Derby and Spring Break .  Approx 70K people.

The problem?   The crowds and noise levels just were too much for me.  It was nice to get home and be able to hear birds or actual sounds for a change.  it was so loud there. 

Very few of those young people follow racing.  It was a "weekend thing" with a lot of partying.  Young people dressed fun, winter-to-summer transition, "good times". 

But new racing fans it did not make.  IMHO.     Many of them went to the casino to play on the tables afterwards.  It's just more of a party weekend than anything else.  Not about *racing* for most.   (except us die-hard racing folks).  What % of that 70K was that?  Probably about less than 40% if that. 

[dblakers]

Honestly I do not know why people look at horse racing the way they do. This is not a sport like football, baseball, basketball etc.. that the average joe watches. Horse racing is a Gambling game. A person either loves to gamble on horse racing or they don't. You cannot get or create this type of person. Just to many other choices out there today. For example Daily Fantasy Sports - draftkings, fanduel etc.. Sportsbooks these are the things that this generation likes to spend their gambling money on. Horse racing simply cannot compete with it. Doesn't matter what you do. My advise to horse racing is take care of the people you have, For example how about stop charging to get it, more food and drink specials. On big days like the Derby stop robbing people for every penny before they even make a bet. These are the things that piss me off. Now when it comes to the big days or even live racing, you will have people who are not bettors come, people love a part atmosphere, but these type of people don't last and majority are not big bettors. The guy that is there everyday, the degenerate is the one you need to take care of. In 30 years if the United States is still around, will horse racing be? Honestly I am not sure.

[Deleted]

this^^^

[mysaladdays]

May 15, 2023 9:18:00 GMT -5 dblakers said:

Now when it comes to the big days or even live racing, you will have people who are not bettors come, people love a part atmosphere, but these type of people don't last and majority are not big bettors. The guy that is there everyday, the degenerate is the one you need to take care of.

Exactly how I described the latest AR Derby.   

I can skip the "party" on the big days.  Not what I'm there for.   

We Oaklawn "horse racing fans/bettors"  are very loyal during the entire meet.  It's mostly people from AR or the close surrounding states.   That's who shows up on weekdays and regular weekends and keep the meet going.  

On the big days the ones who show up to party just buy those "pick sheets" from the same kiosk where they purchase their programs.  It's fun for them to make some wagers on the day and win.  Everyone has a good time. 

But they are not there day-after-day.  

[shoes]

The things is though, a lot of those young folks there for the party turn into 'degenerates'- that describes me and many of my friends. We went down there to drink, hopefully meet some cute members of the opposite sex, and bet on the Oaks and Derby- 50 years later I'm spending months and hundreds of hours watching preps, and workouts an poring over forms while betting the whole card. I'm not unique, I know many others that started the same way.

[Deleted]

from what i saw at ap the percentage of partiers turned into degenerates can only, at best, be 1%. at the derby u can drop that x10.
IMHO making things better for the current bettors who will then POSSIBLY recruit people into the game who will stay is a better way to go...unless u r trying to suck people into owning...whole other story and see above

[Deleted]

May 16, 2023 20:44:05 GMT -5 shoes said:

The things is though, a lot of those young folks there for the party turn into 'degenerates'- that describes me and many of my friends. We went down there to drink, hopefully meet some cute members of the opposite sex, and bet on the Oaks and Derby- 50 years later I'm spending months and hundreds of hours watching preps, and workouts an poring over forms while betting the whole card. I'm not unique, I know many others that started the same way.

u say "down there". are u in indiana or ohio? of course there aren't as many options there as chicago or nyc or hollywood

[spiderjohn]

dblakers did a much better job of going where I was headed. Horseplayers are their own class of gamblers, with the majority only dabbling in other forms of wagering.

I respect what shoes is saying also—-though I started going to the track very young, and have never gone to a racetrack to do anything other than bet on the races. Would rather drink and party afterwards. Honestly until I took my grandchildren to the Derby I had never been to the infield.

The big race day party scene is probably here to stay. I have adjusted to it, and can operate within it yet primarily outside of it. The tracks get more high $$ admissions and sell a lot more alcohol.
The gamblers will still play the races, primarily from home. All you really need to do is take a look at the grandstands at Belmont and Churchill on any weekday or minor weekend to understand what drives horse racing today.

[mysaladdays]

May 17, 2023 11:36:26 GMT -5 spiderjohn said:

dblakers did a much better job of going where I was headed. Horseplayers are their own class of gamblers, with the majority only dabbling in other forms of wagering.

I respect what shoes is saying also—-though I started going to the track very young, and have never gone to a racetrack to do anything other than bet on the races. Would rather drink and party afterwards. Honestly until I took my grandchildren to the Derby I had never been to the infield.

The big race day party scene is probably here to stay. I have adjusted to it, and can operate within it yet primarily outside of it. The tracks get more high $$ admissions and sell a lot more alcohol.
The gamblers will still play the races, primarily from home. All you really need to do is take a look at the grandstands at Belmont and Churchill on any weekday or minor weekend to understand what drives horse racing today.

 Unfortunately, I must point out that there's  nothing like 70K people with lots of drinkers among them, leaving the parking lot at the racetracks, to get out on the road and drive back home where they came from.  Yes, personal accountability yada yada yada ...it does happen.  

Besides the many bars already in place full time w/in the casinos and grandstands, and the bar tents out on the infield.........every couple steps there'd be someone pushing a beer cart around.......so you basically didn't have to walk more than a few steps to get an alcoholic beverage.  

Given the age group, I'd say that a lot of people were driving who should not have been ( out of that 70K people).  

I used to go to some fun dances w/in the south american communities ( I was teaching English as a Second Language thru volunteers for literacy and students invited me to salsa dances, etc. )    and that's how every evening ended, in the wee hours of the morning.  FREE to all the guests who paid admission to get in.  Every dance place hosted a breakfast buffet with waffles, pancakes, eggs, sausage, and lots of coffee........They made interventions that would help people not go out onto the roads after a night of drinking and dancing, I always thought this was a LOVELY thing to do.   It says they *care* about their community.    Would be nice to see more of this, IMHO.  Kinda made everyone aware to maybe check their own ability to drive and offered them some food and coffee to take the edge off. 

[grommet]

I had been a proponent of leaving the Triple Crown spacing as it is until this year.  The Preakness has essentially become another Peter Pan stakes.  I've reached a point where I'd be fine with the Preakness being moved to the first weekend in July to attract more horses.  

This is an old article but interesting - the current Triple Crown spacing has only been in place since 1969.  Maybe we should reset back to 1919 when Sir Barton won the Preakness and Belmont on a Wednesday afternoon :0)

paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/what-tradition-triple-crown-schedule-has-always-been-a-thing-of-change/