Sure glad that I wasn’t live with the 1 in the Pick 6

[turffan]

WTF

[1hooper]

Have a friend that had the #1 singled in P4 and P5. And hated the fave #3.

[eye123]

Maybe we have the same friend

PK5 - Breeders Cup Friday - R6 - $24
Leg 1: 3, 6, 7, 8
Leg 2: 6
Leg 3: 1, 2, 5, 7
Leg 4: 9, 10, 12
Leg 5: 1
Bets (48) Amount: $0.50
Total: $24

PK4 - Breeders Cup Friday - R7 - $36
Leg 1: 6
Leg 2: 1, 2, 5, 7, 11, 12
Leg 3: 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12
Leg 4: 1, 2
Bets (72) Amount: $0.50
Total: $36

[1hooper]

Saw this online, sums up the day.

So, the late double was a horse that couldn't earn Derby points and a horse that couldn't be wagered on.
Cool. We're doing great, guys.

[eye123]

Nov 5, 2021 21:54:02 GMT -5 1hooper said:

Saw this online, sums up the day.

So, the late double was a horse that couldn't earn Derby points and a horse that couldn't be wagered on.
Cool. We're doing great, guys.

Yep, it seems the BS keeps piling up on a daily basis. Can see those who have been in this game a long time (and who remember what it use to be like) leaving it altogether. 

[goldandmyrrh]

Today's WTF situation prompted me to look at the California law:

(d) If a wagering interest in any of the Pick (n) races is scratched, or is designated to run for purse only in accordance with Rule 1974 of this article, the association may substitute the favorite for the scratched or designated wagering interest, determined by total amounts wagered in the win pool at the close of wagering on that race, or allow patrons the option of selecting an alternate wagering interest. The favorite or alternate wagering interest shall be substituted for the scratched wagering interest, or horse designated to run for purse only, for all purposes. If the association elects to substitute the favorite and the win pool total is identical for two or more horses, the horse with the lowest program number is used.


1. You'd think nowadays when most of the handle is on personal wagering platforms the technology exists to allow for this "designated wagering interest". Nobody needs to run back to the windows like in the past(except for those receiving paper tickets at the track(maybe that's why))

2. I never read the rule that covered the possibility that 2 or more horses would be exact to the dollar favorites in the win pool. I assumed I suppose that both would pay, but no, at least not in California. A tie goes to the lowest program number. Who knew?

[mikeythehorse]

I had the 1 to win the pick 5. It was a disgrace to the sport what happened today. How does the horse run and NOT COUNT? A total disgrace for a billion dollar industry to allow this to happen? What was the rush to scratch the 1? The only answer is that they didn't want to pay out all the winnings on the 1. Bullshit refunds mean nothing! 

[tenfurlongs]

All my wagers (with Modern Games on top) were refunded.


From the PaulickReport-


CHRB officials later explained that two veterinarians standing behind the gate — Dr. Dana Stead and Dr. Chuck Jenkins — saw Modern Games rear and thought the horse hit the back of the gate, and that they believed he subsequently broke through the front gates.

Dr. Jeff Blea, equine medical director for the CHRB, explained that a horse breaking through a gate which has not been opened for the horse can result in a shoulder fracture that may not be detected until the horse began galloping. Such an injury could prove fatal.

CHRB executive director Scott Chaney said that veterinarians radioed to the stewards that Modern Games would be a scratch before the horse had been brought back around behind the gate. The scratch was announced and the horse was taken out of the wagering pools for around four minutes before veterinarians examined Modern Games and spoke with Buick. They concluded the horse had not broken the front gates and was in a fit state to race.

The stewards later released the following statement about the incident:

Prior to the start of the race, #1 Modern Games (IRE) reared up and hit the back of the gate; #2 Albahr (GB) flipped over and became lodged underneath the starting gate. The scratch of #2 Albahr was relayed to the stewards and that horse was taken out of the wagering pools. Albahr appears uninjured. The veterinary staff then relayed a second scratch of #1 Modern Games (IRE) to the stewards based on initial observation. Upon confirmation that #1 also was to be scratched, the stewards removed the horse from the wagering pools. After further discussion among the regulatory veterinarians at the gate and after further observation of #1 Modern Games, that horse was declared fit and racing sound, and this fact was relayed to the stewards, who pursuant to CHRB rule 1974 allowed the horse to run for purse money only. The CHRB and the Breeders' Cup are reviewing the current veterinary and scratching procedures to ensure that this does not occur going forward.

There is no rule in California requiring that a horse who breaks through a gate is an automatic scratch; rather, that decision is left up to the official veterinarian on the ground.

Buick said later he was unaware his horse ever had been scratched, because he knew the horse had not been injured in the incident. He was asked by veterinarians on the ground what had happened, and after he explained that he was let out of the gate by the starter, his horse was examined and he was reloaded.

“Usually horses get backed out the back of gate and everyone gets reorganized and goes again,” Buick said afterwards. “The stall handler there, he obviously meant well and tried to do the right thing, but he opened the front gate without anyone being ready for it and my horse did what he's taught to do and jumps out. Fortunately he got my message and we pulled up and went around the back. To be honest I was unaware of the situation. The vet team wanted to know what happened, I told them what happened and the guy who opened my gate told them thankfully exactly what he did and what happened there. They had all the information. Maybe there was a bit of confusion and panic back there.”




TW

[spiderjohn]

I had 1-6-14 in the last leg of two p4s, and 1-2-6-10-14 in a p3, live with all three( spread wide in the 9th).

I had a good start to the day, but crashed big time late, mainly since I was able to play the expensive shotgun tickets mentioned above.

I now have a way to lose even with a runner finishing first. I can’t make sense of any part of the explanation—on the showcase weekend of the year.

How can they top it today?
Business as usual lol?

[propro]

Half of my BC Friday play was on that race. $20 exacta box 1-2-4. When Albahr was scratched, that scratch showed up immediately through the online TVG in NJ. When Modern Games went to no odds on the feed, TVG still had him listed with odds and his number was still on the starting gate. He remained with odds for a few minutes until he went to scratched for a minute, then back up as available at 99-1 with no money wagered on him, then showing 3-2 odds with money in the pools on him. I wonder if they tried to reinstate him in the pools but realized afterward that calling someone a scratch is final and cannot be reversed. It cost me something just getting a refund, but those that had pick-x tickets with Modern Games on top have to be devastated. It's an early Christmas for Tiz The Bomb backers in those pools. I understood the dislike for Dakota Gold. Monmouth didn't get their money's worth putting up a half million dollar purse in the NowNowNow when a merely average n1x group shows up (with the exception of Coinage, who won a stake at Saratoga because he got the trip of his dreams).

If there were to be a fix to the pick-x rules, what would we want to see if there's a scratch that leads to someone running for purse money only? Some sort of consolation? Make that leg an "all" race? I can see issues there if a total outsider was scratched by mistake or a 99-1 shot wins the race.

[spiderjohn]

Good ? Propro—— imo too many very late scratches for no apparent reason(often big odds no hopers) in late legs of these gimmicks.

What would be fair and sensible?

A kick in the nuts to a lot of players yesterday—-imagine playing big $$
p4-5-6s…. And u know it happened on such a big day

[tenfurlongs]

Some thoughts: (tl;dr)

I'm very happy that neither horse was badly injured. They appear to have come through the gate incident relatively unscathed.

I'm very happy that Frankie Dettori was able to dismount and hustle away from the flailing horse.

Hopefully the assistant starter who was injured recovers quickly. Damn dangerous occupation at times.


Now, to the human error, and the human bettors.

The on-track vets apparently 'rushed to judgment' without possessing all the facts. With horse safety at the forefront these days, especially in California, they followed the 'overabundance of caution' mantra. Normally in this situation, all the other horses get backed out, the involved horses are examined behind the gate, and a decision is made as to whether they are fit to race. This did not happen, because two vets 'assumed' they saw a horse break through the gate, it was Breeders' Cup day, and 'we'll be crucified if something happens during the race to a horse we allowed to run.' If this was the third race on a Wednesday, there isn't necessarily a heightened level of fear, of getting it wrong, on the Biggest stage, and all the pressure that must have suddenly descended on them. Humans fuck up. Always have, always will. Not an excuse, but don't expect your life, or anyone else's, to be a boulevard of never-ending green lights. 

Once they screwed-up and sent the 'scratch the 1' message to the stewards, is where I don't have a clear understanding of what followed with the tote, and why the actions were irreversible. If anyone knows, I'm all ears.

Bettors always think they are getting screwed. Especially bettors with a live ticket (otherwise, not so much). "Without us, there is no horse racing!" Partially true, but without breeders, owners, racetracks, staff and all the related industries, there is no racing. Rich people could race their horses against each other on privately built tracks just for the sport and bragging rights. Wagering provides funding for much of this, including purse money. Ask how many owners 'make money' from racing their horses. But at least they get cash flow back (hopefully) to keep the gears moving. 

Once the stewards realized that Modern Games had been inadvertently and prematurely scratched, and was fit to race, they had to make a decision. The betting rules (for scratches) had already kicked in, and that pie was baked (although I think we need to fully understand the modern tote system, and why bets get canceled immediately and irretrievably, in an age where computers can do anything). Would it be fair to the connections of Modern Games for a perfectly sound horse to be not allowed to run, because some humans made a mistake? I'm totally on board with him being allowed to run. The stewards could at least correct that part of the screw up and its consequences. 

"Fire the vets!". "Get new stewards!". "Where's my money?". All us bettors know the scratch rules, or we're supposed to. It can get murky down in there, but you basically know that if a horse scratches, you get a refund, or you get transferred to the PTF, depending on the type of wager. Don't like those rules, try to change them or don't play. I think it should just be a straight refund, no matter what. Scratches are going to happen, deal with it. There is a system in place to try to make a fair shake when it happens. 

Whenever controversial incidents happen in all areas of life, we talk it over and make what we think are improvements, so 'this never happens again!', but it won't be long before there is another hole to plug. Perfection is unattainable, expect the unexpected, don't try to cherry-pick the good without the bad. Eat your vegetables. Turn the page, there are bigger fish to fry, battles to fight, and songs to sing. That's entertainment.




TW 










 

[turffan]

Despite how utterly messed up that was, it saved me some pain. Being cheap, I played a $4 Pick 5 ticket, leaving out Pizza Blanc who was on all of my Pick 3 tickets. For $2 more I could have included that one. So on to the last race, I would have been live with the 1 and 2, each paying over $500 for 50 cents. Then they scratched the 2 so I guess I was looking at $1000 for 50 cents if the 1 won, which he did but didn’t. I’m not sure I would have ever gotten over that one.

[jolyb]

Tom, your post was the fairest and most objective I have read so far.  The one area where I continue to be mystified is why in certain multi race bets the wager needs to be transferred to the PTF.  It is very possible that a player made that bet to beat what he/she thought was a vulnerable favorite.  It is just as possible that the PTF is already on the ticket and the bettor doesn't want it again.  Either way, the player doesn't want to be stuck with a bet he/she didn't make.   We have all seen races in which one horse is the favorite when the gate opens and an entirely different one becomes the favorite somewhere down the back stretch as the tote is updated.

In many jurisdictions there will be a conso payoff if a scratch occurs in a Double or even a Pick 3.  With all of the computing power available I don't see why a conso payoff could not be created in a Pick 4 [or more] when such a scratch occurs.  It would make horrible mistakes such as yesterday just a little more palatable.

[eye123]

"All my wagers (with Modern Games on top) were refunded."

Tom....no refunds on pk4 pk5 wagers, just a kick in the ass. We're on very different pages. The "move on" scenario has been playing out much to often of late. It's not entertainment, just accepting the BS and eating it with a spoon. Not my cup of tea. Maybe yours.

[tenfurlongs]

Nov 6, 2021 9:51:20 GMT -5 eye123 said:

"All my wagers (with Modern Games on top) were refunded."

Tom....no refunds on pk4 pk5 wagers, just a kick in the ass. We're on very different pages. The "move on" scenario has been playing out much to often of late. It's not entertainment, just accepting the BS and eating it with a spoon. Not my cup of tea. Maybe yours.

One thing I'm trying to figure out is whether horseplayers are just pissed-off about another in a seemingly endless stream of self-inflicted wounds by horse racing, or if this particular incident is completely outrageous because the #1 was allowed to run, won the race, but bettors couldn't collect on that outcome. 

Even if Modern Games (or any other horse that you used in the final leg of a pick-wager) was scratched and not running at all, your bets (under the current rules) still went to the post-time favorite. You probably didn't want/use the favorite, or maybe you did. In any case, Tiz the Bomb won (in the pari-mutuel pools). So, are you mad about the scratch rules in pick-type races? What would you like to see happen, specifically, in a case like this? It's definitely a frustrating outcome, but its what the rules dictated. 




TW

[1hooper]

Modern games was listed at 7-2 on the screen DURING the race. The tote board still listed money in his pool next to the scratch announcement.
All screen shots available at Ray Paulick twitter. twitter.com/raypaulick?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[eye123]

Tom..it has nothing to do with allowing the horse to run. It has all to do with the right of the bettors to express their thoughts on what happened ("Fire the vets!". "Get new stewards!". "Where's my money?") and the acceptance to just "move on". The right course would have been for the Vet to inspect the horse before scratching...not assuming what happened. Yet another mistake accepted...move on. Incident after incident the bettor is taking the brunt of the mistakes out of their control. Any bettor who is frustrated by this should have their voice heard. Something the industry is sorely lacking in. Yes, "seemingly endless stream of self-inflicted wounds" is the problem.

[eye123]

Nov 6, 2021 10:15:57 GMT -5 1hooper said:

Modern games was listed at 7-2 on the screen DURING the race. The tote board still listed money in his pool next to the scratch announcement.
All screen shots available at Ray Paulick twitter. twitter.com/raypaulick?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

He was also listed in the "will pays" ...as confusing as it gets, I guess when you have 20,000 people booing a Breeders Cup winner it says it all.

[oriolegirl]

I was alive in pick 3 with Dubawi Legend. Threw in two $20 savers. One was on Tiz The Bomb 😁. A gift!
Steve