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Post by tenfurlongs on Oct 5, 2023 12:54:53 GMT -5
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Post by mysaladdays on Oct 5, 2023 14:54:20 GMT -5
I did not know that Westover was set to come to the BC? I didn' see that anywhere. Because even before he was injured, they had already entered him in the Japan Cup, which is at the very end of November. Maybe trainer said it was "possible' but I didn't see any real intention to bring here.
Most euro trainers would not take horses who ran in this level of race and expect them to run, a mere 4 weeks later, and add international travel to that, in the BC races. Few horses leave the ARC and come here afterwards..
...what ARC winners horses who ran ITM have come for the BC? Unless they have just been taken off the shelf right before the ARC and are very fresh or who had not had much of a taxing campaign? Given the short time frame, grueling international travel, and the very tight turns we have on racecourses here?
Meanwhile, I think Ace Impact may be very special. I was comparing him to Enable and her campaign didn't even start til April. Ace Impact's campaign started in January.......and he's undefeated. And as I was looking on the type of ground conditions, as well as the different race courses he has won on, it kind of matches my theory that true champions are not overly concerned about surfaces.
At any rate: Why do we not send horses to the Arc, to the Melbourne Cup, or to the Japan Cup
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Post by tenfurlongs on Oct 6, 2023 6:37:43 GMT -5
From the racingpost.com article: www.racingpost.com/news/festivals/prix-de-larc-de-triomphe/im-enormously-proud-hes-danced-every-dance-all-year-ralph-beckett-thrilled-with-wonderful-westover-aVu0n0C1VHDFNobody could begrudge Westover another big pot, that's for sure, and that could be at Santa Anita next month as Beckett has his eye on the Breeders' Cup Turf. Indeed, he is set to stay in training next season, too. He said: "I think it's likely he'll stay in training next year. He has kind of grown up now. I know he got warm beforehand, but not for long. We've ditched the red hood now as well. Every time he goes to the track he's getting better. In the stables he looked like one of Henry de Bromhead's jumpers. He was asleep walking around. "Rob's comment was that he is thriving and getting better and better with every start. I would be quite keen to go for the Breeders' Cup Turf. We saw he enjoyed travelling in Dubai and it's a gig that would fit in well if he's in the right shape." TW |
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1hooper
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Post by 1hooper on Oct 6, 2023 7:29:15 GMT -5
Nice horse.
Do you think we'll see Ace Impact run again?
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Post by mysaladdays on Oct 6, 2023 10:06:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the racing post article TW. I guess it depends where you read. Where I was reading said they had already entered him in the Japan Cup because it was end of November. I actually have a hard time believing they would have run Westover, who "danced every dance" into the BC race, with only 4 weeks to go.... combined with international travel. 4 weeks! After that large of an effort.
Now we will never know, I guess.
Well we know we won't see Ace Impact run again til next year. He has been running pretty constantly, 7 races since January 2023.
I haven't followed Rouget closely enough to know his typical behavior or recommendations......anyone else?
It just made me think of his possible "dirt twin", Flightline, despite I am not a huge Flightline fan (*blasphemy I know!*) BC Classic winner against a KY Derby freak winnner (who never was able to win another race after that), a horse who managed to win the PA Derby, and a horse like Epicenter, who had to be vanned off, isn't a huge accomplishment in my book. I even compared him to horses Zenyatta ran against and it was almost humorous.
OTOH the Longchamp course was freakishly fast this year, not being the bog it usually is, and Auguste Rodin and Equinox were not in the field, but Ace Impact ran 10 seconds faster than Alpinista last year. Ecuries Serge Stempniak has horses who were still competing at 8 and 10 years old so there is no telling.
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Post by tenfurlongs on Oct 6, 2023 10:40:57 GMT -5
Here is a link to the charts for every BC Turf since 1991: www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Stakes&stkid=4197top-three finishers in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, running back in BC Turf:1991: Pistolet Blue (Arc 3rd, good-to-soft) ran fifth, CD, firm 1992: Subotica (Arc 1st, soft) ran fifth, GP, firm 1993: Opera House (Arc 3rd, winner Urban Sea, heavy) ran sixth, SA, firm 1994: Hernando (Arc 2nd, good-to-soft) ran sixth, CD, firm 1995: Freedom Cry (Arc 2nd, very soft) ran second, BEL, soft 1996: Pilsudski (Arc 2nd, good-to-soft) ran first, WO, good 1997: Borgia (Arc 3rd, good-to-firm) ran second, HOL, firm 1998: Leggera (Arc 2nd, soft) ran twelfth, CD, firm 1999: none, GP, good 2000: none, CD, firm 2001: none, BEL, firm 2002: High Chaparral (Arc 3rd, good) ran 1st, AP, yielding 2003: High Chaparral (Arc 3rd, heavy) ran 1st (dead-heat, Johar), SA, firm 2004: none, LS, yielding 2005: Bago (Arc 3rd, good-to-soft) ran fourth, BEL, good 2006: none, CD, firm 2007: Dylan Thomas (Arc 1st, good-to-soft) ran fifth, MTH, soft 2008: Soldier of Fortune (Arc 3rd, winner Zarkava, good-to-soft) ran fourth, SA, firm 2009: none, SA, firm 2010: none, CD, firm 2011: none, CD, good 2012: none, SA, firm 2013: none, SA, firm 2014: Flintshire (Arc 2nd, winner Treve, good) ran second, SA, good 2015: Golden Horn (Arc 1st, good) ran second, KEE, good 2016: Highland Reel (Arc 1st, good) ran first, SA, firm 2017: none, DMR, firm 2018: Enable (Arc 1st, good) ran first, CD, good 2019: none, SA, firm 2020: Tarnawa (Arc 1st, heavy) ran first, KEE, firm 2021: Tarnawa (Arc 2nd, heavy) ran eleventh, DMR, firm 2022: none, KEE, firm It seems like it is a less popular route to take at the end of the season nowadays, but the Coolmore lads, Juddmonte, the Aga Khan, and Mr. Oppenheimer have all tried it since 2007, with pretty good results. TW |
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Post by mysaladdays on Oct 6, 2023 11:20:09 GMT -5
We must have been thinking the same thing at the same time, as I had done a (very quick) drive-by of the same thing yesterday.  It really depends on how stuff is interpreted, and I didn't go back as far as you did because training and racing has changed a whole lot since 20 years ago. I also did not include non winners of the Arc, i;e. Tarwana, Highland Reel, etc. so looking at both my list and yours does give a good/better overview. I believe in a level playing field, so unless you got a horse who is a "real fire breather" who also had a very light campaign, both for the year as well as overall career, or ran the Arc in a manner that literally "took nothing out of them"......otherwise, bringing a horse back in a mere 4 weeks time, and not just running back from any race, but one of the highest levels of racing in the world, and then which includes international travel, quarantine, track configurations being much tighter here....... it's not something I personally would attempt with a horse I owned. It would also be dependent on age of the horse. I mean, we are already having this conversation with regard to our own TC races, aren't we? IF you know me at all, you already know I'm not into the "horse as gladiator" concept to begin with. Some of the races in the past aren't useful to me in the present day scenario.....the way horses are bred, trained and campaigned has changed a whole lot in 20 years. Not every trainer is like Lukas, for instance (another topic entirely) but he has his fans and detractors for a reason. Alpinista - never raced in the US including after winning the Arc late in her career Enable - came here after her first Arc win and won the BC Turf; did not return to the US again for any races, even after running 2nd and 6th in next 2 Arcs Torquator Tasso - never came to the US for any race Sottsass - never came to the US for any race Waldgeist - was 4th in his first Arc and came here for the BC turf and ran 4th, but after he won the Arc on 2nd try he didn't come here Enable - came for BC after her 1st Arc win and won here, but did not come here after running in the next 2 Arcs Found - ran 9th in her first Arc, then came here for BC Turf and beat everyone. Won the Arc on her 2nd try, came here and ran 3rd in the BC turf Golden Horn - won the Arc then came here and ran 2nd in BC Turf Treve - won the Arc 2x, then came 3rd in her final Arc; never raced in the BC or the US Solemia - won the Arc then went to the Japan Cup where ran 13th Danedream - won the Arc then went to the Japan Cup where ran 6th Workforce - won the Arc and never came to the US. 2nd attempt at Arc ran 12th Sea the Stars - won the Arc; never raced in the U.S. Zarkava - won the Arc, retired undefeated and never came to the U.S. Dylan Thomas - won the Arc and ran 5th in the BC Turf Rail Link - won the Arc but never raced in the U.S. Hurricane Run - won the Arc and did not come to BC races. Ran 3rd in his next Arc, came here and ran 6th in the BC Turf Bago - won his first Arc and did not come here; Ran 3rd in his next Arc, then came here and ran 4th in BC Turf, then went to Japan cup and ran 8th What did I get out of this? Horses going to Japan Cup from the Arc do not do well. Arc winners are bad bets in the Japan Cup. Fiillies/Mare win quite a number of Arcs Most Arc winners do not come here, but if they do, they either run ITM or out of the money entirely. Most Arc winners who come here usually do it very early in their careers ..... age does seems to play into it. |
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Post by tenfurlongs on Oct 6, 2023 11:27:47 GMT -5
I did not know that Westover was set to come to the BC? I didn' see that anywhere. Because even before he was injured, they had already entered him in the Japan Cup, which is at the very end of November. Maybe trainer said it was "possible' but I didn't see any real intention to bring here. Most euro trainers would not take horses who ran in this level of race and expect them to run, a mere 4 weeks later, and add international travel to that, in the BC races. Few horses leave the ARC and come here afterwards.. ...what ARC winners horses who ran ITM have come for the BC? Unless they have just been taken off the shelf right before the ARC and are very fresh or who had not had much of a taxing campaign? Given the short time frame, grueling international travel, and the very tight turns we have on racecourses here? Meanwhile, I think Ace Impact may be very special. I was comparing him to Enable and her campaign didn't even start til April. Ace Impact's campaign started in January.......and he's undefeated. And as I was looking on the type of ground conditions, as well as the different race courses he has won on, it kind of matches my theory that true champions are not overly concerned about surfaces. At any rate: Why do we not send horses to the Arc, to the Melbourne Cup, or to the Japan Cup I think they (Juddmonte) took an entry to the Japan Cup after he finished second in the King George at Ascot in July. The JRA awards bonus money ($250,000 +) to top-three finishers in the Japan Cup if they've won or finished second in select worldwide races, as a way to draw international entries. Not that Juddmonte needs the $$  , but they are basically getting paid to participate and then some if they run well. Westover was a good traveler (Dubai), and as you said, he's only had four starts this year since Meydan, and the Arc was his first since the end of July, so he was fresh. He ran three times in eight weeks at Epsom, Saint-Cloud and Ascot, with a win and two seconds. Ambitious, but doable. American-bred turf horses are still not up to rest-of-the-world elite standards, although some owners/breeders are making strides in that direction by purchasing European bloodstock and running them here, now that turf purses have grown substantially. Whether they keep them/develop broodmare bands remains to be seen, that's a multi-generational vision that many may not have time for. The days of sportmanship seem to be a bygone era. An owner can stay 'home' and run better-bred horses than the other guys (see: Chad Brown's owners), without travel headaches/expenses. If you want to have a laugh, look at the purses offered for British racing, especially in the lower ranks (Ireland is better, but still pretty weak.) They almost have to go prospecting overseas to make ends meet. TW |
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Post by mysaladdays on Oct 6, 2023 12:10:18 GMT -5
All good points, and a mixed bag in terms of all the many decisions involved ($$, travel, campaign, etc.).
The sportsmanship angle was what prompted me to ask why more U.S. horses don't go to the Melbourne Cup, Japan Cup, Arc de Triomphe, but it's hard to do when you are one of the few nations that still races primarily on dirt.
Also interestingly, after we talked them into ripping out their tapeta track over there in Dubai in favor of American style dirt, it appears that U.S. horseman haven't exactly been running over there in droves.
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1hooper
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Post by 1hooper on Oct 6, 2023 13:10:42 GMT -5
Quick mention of Jolypha who was unplaced in the '92 Arc but finished 3rd in the '92 Classic on dirt.
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Post by mysaladdays on Oct 6, 2023 18:57:00 GMT -5
Quick mention of Jolypha who was unplaced in the '92 Arc but finished 3rd in the '92 Classic on dirt. She did great both while in France and under Fabre. That BC was her last race of the season. After she was freshened and decided to remain here and run in the Spring,, I don't think Bobby F figured her out |
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Post by merasmag on Oct 6, 2023 20:44:31 GMT -5
probably looked at this year's
weather patterns
and said
nevermind
is there a line on snow bc day?
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Ought to make a fine sire though, as a son of Frankel, and grandson of Sadler's Wells and Roberto (not a misprint.)
Ought to make a fine sire though, as a son of Frankel, and grandson of Sadler's Wells and Roberto (not a misprint.)
It really depends on how stuff is interpreted, and I didn't go back as far as you did because training and racing has changed a whole lot since 20 years ago.
, but they are basically getting paid to participate and then some if they run well. Westover was a good traveler (Dubai), and as you said, he's only had four starts this year since Meydan, and the Arc was his first since the end of July, so he was fresh. He ran three times in eight weeks at Epsom, Saint-Cloud and Ascot, with a win and two seconds. Ambitious, but doable.