eye123
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Post by eye123 on Sept 28, 2022 9:09:50 GMT -5
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Sept 28, 2022 15:46:28 GMT -5
Thanks for posting eye, I had not listened to that before. I will say tHat Petraeus, is IMO not credible when discussing political rather than military issues. I have an inherent distrust of generals and those associated with the military-industrail complex when it comes to recommended political action as they and their peers and compadres have a vested interest with respect to both power and money in advancing armed conflicts rather than limiting or ending them. I am attaching a link to an article which though a long read, is well worth it, in terms of bringing up issues that many have not considered in part because they are not easily or frequently disseminated to us. claremontreviewofbooks.com/why-are-we-in-ukraine/
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on Sept 28, 2022 17:34:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the article shoe. For the most part I thought Petraeus's points were pretty accurate.(current situation) I'll grant Ukraine is a sticky problem over the years. But the bottom line was when Russia went full bore at Kiev. (Intention to totally absorb Ukraine by the thumb) They could have gotten assurances that Ukraine would not join NATO.....but instead took the direction they did. AKA...the situation they currently are in.
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Sept 28, 2022 17:50:39 GMT -5
Who was willing to grant the assurances about NATO? I think that the US and China could have brought this conflict to a halt if the two countries had been willing to do so, before or shortly after it started. But each country showed little interest in doing so. Each probably for their own selfish rather than humanitarian reasons. As TC noted in the other thread China stands to gain from this as Russia is forced to turn to them for an economic lifeline and the US because as it fights a dangerous proxy war with Russia using mega millions of US arms and systems, and the blood of the Ukranians. While the military aid comes out of our funds the arms contractors providing this weapons and systems are paid in full.
My world view about war was shaped by Viet nam , the most profound event for my generation and the many subsequent disasters in Bosnia, Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan et al. I have yet to see where we have gotten it right. By the way I heartily recommend historian Max Hastings book- Viet Nam (an Epic Tragedy 1945-1975). It is very well researched and documented and the most balanced thing I have read on th topic.
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Post by bobtailnag on Sept 28, 2022 20:59:03 GMT -5
Thank you Mr Eyes. I hope Petraues is a at least 75& right.
shoes - I didn't read much of "Why Are We in Ukraine?" because into my way of thinking we're not "in" Ukraine. If supporting Ukraine with money, food and weapons then we are also "in" Israel and several other spots around the world - as are several of other countries. When the body bags start coming home, God forbid, then Mr Caldwell can truthfully ask "Why Are We in Ukraine?".
Generals usually are arrogant and several of words with 4 letters. My wife's grandfather was Brigadier Frayne Baker who one of Mcauther's crew. By 1946 he had risen to Dep. Chief of Staff of Army in the Pacific. She had never actually met him face to face but on our honeymoon to SF his wife invited us to stay with them for a couple days. They lived on the 17 mile drive so we took a helicopter to Montera and they picked us up there. It was very different than what I expected. Bed time was 9:00pn - no ifs, ands buts. We were happy to go home after 2 nights.
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Post by bobtailnag on Sept 28, 2022 21:39:28 GMT -5
Thank you Mr Eyes. I hope Petraues is a at least 75& right.
shoes - I didn't read much of "Why Are We in Ukraine?" because into my way of thinking we're not "in" Ukraine. If supporting Ukraine with money, food and weapons then we are also "in" Israel and several other spots around the world - as are several of other countries. When the body bags start coming home, God forbid, then Mr Caldwell can truthfully ask "Why Are We in Ukraine?".
Generals usually are arrogant and several of words with 4 letters. My wife's grandfather was Brigadier Frayne Baker who one of Mcauther's crew. By 1946 he had risen to Dep. Chief of Staff of Army in the Pacific. She had never actually met him face to face but on our honeymoon to SF his wife invited us to stay with them for a couple days. They lived on the 17 mile drive so we took a helicopter to Montera and they picked us up there. It was very different than what I expected. Bed time was 9:00pn - no ifs, ands buts. We were happy to go home after 2 nights.
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Sept 29, 2022 9:54:55 GMT -5
To use an absurd example to try to make a point. If the US was at war with Canada, and Germany was furnishing Canada with advanced weapons costing billions of $$ and they were helping Canada with tracking systems to locate and attack US troops, would you then consider Germany to be "in"the conflict or even at war with us?
Your point about the bodybags is of course, right and that is why our government feels free to do almost anything short of sending ground troops (the article I linked cited Kosovo as an example of this). For many Americans, so long as some other country's children, parents or siblings are dying, and so long as it isn't our farms, factories, schools, or homes being destroyed, we can somewhat overlook that. As for the Billions spent, where they come from, how the money might be spent otherwise, that is too esoteric to grasp.
Putin isn't going to live forever and hopefully the leadership in Russia that succeeds him will be better, but there are no guarantees. I'm not confident that this has been fully thought through, and that our actions aren't going to have negative ramifications that will persist when the shooting stops, something that the article linked talks about.
We are financing this war and it is coming out of our treasury, and will result in higher taxes and or higher inflation (which is the most pervasive and regressive "tax" of all, as it dispropotionately impacts lower and middle income groups. But the defense and arms contractors are profiting from this and they have a tremendous sway and influence over the politicians in both parties.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on Sept 29, 2022 11:16:36 GMT -5
“To use an absurd example to try to make a point. If the US was at war with Canada, and Germany was furnishing Canada with advanced weapons costing billions of $$ and they were helping Canada with tracking systems to locate and attack US troops, would you then consider Germany to be "in"the conflict or even at war with us?” This scenario had me laughing out loud. Why would we attack our Canadian younger brothers ?(younger brothers…just screwing with our Canadian friends here) (What,they stopped being the nicest people in the world ?) Heck, if we attacked Canada I’d hope we’d be considered just like Russia…aggressors (what hope would Canada have), and others would come to Canada’s defense. (Still smiling at the absurdity ) Shoes, what would you have us do as a nation. Nothing. Allow any country to absorb any weaker country as they please. Sit back and watch. Say we did that during WW 2 ? There will always be those who take weakness as an invitation to take. At some point you have to take a stand. Better earlier than later. Give in to Russia on Ukraine……then Estonia, Latvia,Lithuania, etc. China would also probably consider it an open invitation on Taiwan if the US and NATO countries did nothing when clearly a response is called for. We’ve been wrong as a country in the past(where I think you’re coming from) but don’t think so here. Consider we are not doing this on our own. The list of democratic countries that are contributing to the effort is impressive. (all in the one thought that what is taking place is unjust)
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Sept 29, 2022 12:49:26 GMT -5
If the US and China wanted to have stopped this, they could have. US to Ukraine- "you need to be willing to consider some terms short of Russia's unconditional surrender. we are not going to add you to NATO, nor are we going to finance your war effort " China to Russia-" we will not provide you with an economic lifeline by buying your oil and other products if you pursue this aggression."
The Ukraine government has a long history of corruption, not that you would know from the news we receive from any of our media. Again, as bad as Putin? No. But because one actor is demonstrably bad, it doesn't make the other one good. The risks here are huge and General Petraeus is not inclined to point those out.
In WW2 Britain and France had a treaty with Poland. We have no treaty with Ukraine. We are not the policeman of the world, and every time we have acted like we were, we have paid dearly for it, and ultimately not helped the people of the regions we were ostensibly trying to help.
A vast over-simplification but I saw no evidence of any serous efforts made in the direction of peace, by the 2 alleged super-powers that could have done so. And eye- we have sat on the sidelines in Africa when nations were threatened and absorbed.
Also it is not a question of if, but when China moves on Taiwan, our actions here do not change that likelihood.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on Sept 29, 2022 12:59:39 GMT -5
Shoes, in a perfect world China and the US would work hand in hand. China had "no" reason to intervene. (and this is not a perfect world)
Ukraine has been a corrupt country. Given
Doing "nothing" was never an option. (Remember...this is not "us" acting alone )
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Sept 29, 2022 13:51:45 GMT -5
Eye- I appreciate the discussion.
There is a long range of actions between what we have done and doing nothing. My US- Canada example obviously didn't work very well, I did not intend it to imagine if we substituted for Russia and Canada, for Ukraine but only to try and place ourselves in mindset, of the country who had a third party supplying arms and strategic intelligence to the country that the first country was at war with, would the first country frankly consider that the interceding 3rd party was taking war-like actions against it? This is without regard to the righteousness of the first party's cause ( I think we all agree that Russia is not "in the right" here- if they felt threatened by NATO overtures/receptivemess to Absorbing the Ukraine as a member- Russia's response was still very wrong). We can not reasonably assume that Russia would think, well, we're in the wrong here, so the US gets a pass on what it is doing.
But since you posed the question- what if we truly had done nothing? Do you think Ukraine would still be fighting or would they have attempted to reach an agreement? Do you think that there would be far less loss of life? Freedom is worth fighting for (again assuming that Ukranians had true freedom before) but Would they have elected to fight to the last man? Or played a longer game? I don't know but I believe we (the US) encouraged them to fight and that our motives were not as moral as many hopefully all, of us would hold. I think we saw this as a good proxy war against Russia to weaken them and if it dragged on, well again, someone in the US was making money from it (those supplying the arms and technology that we regular Judy's and Joes are paying for).
What is the line you say? Well I would suggest it would be those nations that we have sworn to defend via formal treaties.
I am not quite a Quaker, but my default position is treating with great skepticism any call to war.
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spanky
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Post by spanky on Sept 29, 2022 14:53:51 GMT -5
Pardon the interruption but I am taking Cincy+3'...lol...
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on Sept 29, 2022 15:07:06 GMT -5
“My US- Canada example obviously didn't work very well”.... Shoes, it worked well for me.(made me smile better than some of the “bits” I posted….and I never underestimate the importance of a smile) I’m not sure what would have happened if we and our allies decided to just “step back”. The fact that Russia decided to come in from the north towards the capital, opposed from the east towards the Donbas(their stated reason for going into Ukraine in the first place(liberate Russians) kind of tells a story. An example of my own: If someone decided to invade us (and we could not defend ourselves as capable as we can) how likely would we be to just “accept” that. How important do we cherish our freedom and the freedom of those we love? Would we not fight to the end for that? If not for that then what ? One thing that is always a common denominator in any war. Someone is making money. I like you would go the diplomatic route first, but in the end “it is what it is” (PS I hate that phrase but sometime it just fits) PS Spanky, still waiting for Florida to allow sports betting. (PS what am I missing...I'm sure others are "getting down" on some of these games) PS...I have not placed a sports bet since, well, I can't remember it's been that long.
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