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Post by cherokeescot on Sept 8, 2020 14:39:12 GMT -5
Bob Baffert poll
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Post by mattcoll on Sept 8, 2020 15:36:52 GMT -5
I DO think he is a great trainer and certainly one of the greatest ever, and I also think Barry Bonds was a great baseball player and one the greatest ever and Lance Armstrong was a great cyclist and on and on....but greatness isn't the FIRST thing I think about with either of these three, and it's not just conjecture. Was it the locoweed or the lidocaine back patch that settled it for me?
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tc
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Post by tc on Sept 8, 2020 16:07:34 GMT -5
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Post by Badactor on Sept 8, 2020 16:18:46 GMT -5
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Post by cherokeescot on Sept 8, 2020 16:50:26 GMT -5
Sorry guys , you only get one choice. To me it’s simple if you don’t think he’s a cheater then he is the greatest US trainer ever . I’ll wait
Ps . TC , that website needs to update his bio !
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spanky
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Post by spanky on Sept 8, 2020 17:04:46 GMT -5
done.
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Post by spiderjohn on Sept 8, 2020 19:35:56 GMT -5
I assume that they all manipulate the rules when they have something to gain I also remember when DWL was the greatest trainer ever Bobby Frankel Woody Stevens etc
none of the above?
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Post by spiderjohn on Sept 8, 2020 19:38:45 GMT -5
I also remember meeting Bob Baffert out at Del Mar early on, when he mentioned bringing 30 Slews east(which he did) was that his first decent horse? Honestly, he comes off today as the same personality type that he was back then---and he looks the same( --he must really know about drugs...)
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Post by cherokeescot on Sept 8, 2020 20:37:00 GMT -5
Bob Baffert: 6 Kentucky Derby: 7 Preakness:3 Belmont: 3 Breeders Cup Classic
D Wayne Lukas: 4 Kentucky Derby: 6 Preakness: 4 Belmont: 1 Breeders Cup Classic
Bobby Frankel: 0 Kentucky Derby: 0 Preakness:1 Belmont: 1 Breeders Cup Classic
Woody Stephens: 2 Kentucky Derby: 1 Preakness: 5 Belmont:0 Breeders Cup Classic
Charlie Whittingham: 2 Kentucky Derby: 1 Preakness: 0 Belmont: 2 Breeders Cup Classic
Todd Pletcher: 2 Kentucky Derby: 0 Preakness: 3 Belmont: 1 Breeders Cup Classic
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Post by Badactor on Sept 8, 2020 21:53:00 GMT -5
Badactor, Bob Baffert & Aunt Frieda @ Hollywood Park.
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Post by spiderjohn on Sept 8, 2020 21:54:25 GMT -5
Big numbers for sure Helps when you get most of the best, owned by those who can take the time. And when one or two go bad, you have three more to use. And when your drug positives get swept under the rug. Dirt 2yos and 3yos are his thing for sure, and since DWL no one does it better...
Call him the GOAT Not going to dispute
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Post by cherokeescot on Sept 10, 2020 15:38:32 GMT -5
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Post by DoctorDisaster on Sept 10, 2020 15:46:04 GMT -5
I checked Cheater. Mainly because I don't think he's the greatest ever.I wouldn't lump him in with Servis and Navaro et al but there are enough violations for me to think this isn't always an accident.JMHO
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Sept 10, 2020 16:41:42 GMT -5
It's a touchy subject. Baffert has been a charismatic and highly successful trainer. I think the pressure to cheat when (possibly so many others are), is strong. Barry Bonds began cheating because he was jealous of the acclaim that Sosa and McGuire, two lesser talents were receiving.
There are many other examples, but why did Jack Van Berg, in my opinion, an excellent trainer, see his winning percentages drop so precipitously in the latter part of his career? My guess that he was unwilling to participate in the "arms race" of performance enhancing drugs, while trying to stay one step ahead of the testers, (remember how Lance Armstrong used to brag that he was the most tested cyclist in the history of the sport, (until he was caught finally), and after the fact it became clear he was cheating all along? There is also the calculation that being caught, can be dealt with as long as it isn't too blatant, and is worth the upside.
Authentic was a horse that appeared to have exhibited distance limitations, breaks poorly, has to be used to rush up to the lead, is pressed by what had heretofore been the best 3 year old in training, and who had not shown similar distance limitations (Tizthelaw), but in the stretch of Authentic's longest race, he keeps going.
Arrogate jumped up in a short time from allowance level to greatest of all time level (he overcame an even worse start in the Dubai World Cup), and then all in less than a year, he becomes vulnerable, losing his last 3 races before retirement.
These are curious, to me, circumstances, not probative of wrong-doing, but whether it is suggestive of same, is subjective, for each of us to consider, or reject.
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forego
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Post by forego on Sept 11, 2020 22:30:59 GMT -5
Ultimately I have to come down on the side of where there's smoke there's fire. So, cheater. Yes, he's good and he's gotten a lot of really good horses through the years, but there have been more than a few violations and eyepopping performances that make me question him. His average winning percentage over the past ten years is a solid 26%, some years better than others. He does have some of the highest winnings per start ratio year in year out and he's high up on the money list too. All accomplished with far fewer starters than many, many other "good" trainers. Sure, no questions that good stock helps, but is it so superior to everyone else or is there an added boost here and there?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2020 22:59:58 GMT -5
The reality of training in 2020 means that you have a veterinarian on hand as soon as entries come out (or as late as possible to uphold withdrawal times) to administer X,Y,Z to the horse. If you don't you lose to the trainers that do and your owners leave. Bad tests for minute overages of routinely unused medications like Lidocaine, methocarbomol (Robaxin), Vetalog really don't bother me. Bad tests for cobra venom or other non veterinary substances do. I have no idea about Jimson weed. TC might.
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Post by mysaladdays on Sept 12, 2020 11:26:42 GMT -5
I gave him a pass on the thryo-L episode because there are other trainers who were administering that, though cluster deaths of young horses doesn't exactly make my heart sing. But it's not just about testing, the pharmacists/chemists who help the cheaters can stay a step ahead of the testing technologies with undectables. What did it for me was the CHRB episode behind closed doors with Justify, I decided that it was a bigger problem than just one trainer, when you have the biggest name in horse racing and you protect them and give special treatment behind closed doors, because a stain on his name would badly hurt all of racing. Instead it's hurting racing anyway. That string of dead horses didn't do much for racing. And, too many really hard working trainers can't win races and will leave the biz. All you'll have left are baffert and the syndicates he trains for. Time to bring in the USDA and the big guns who know how to test for stuff, and also a standardized set of rules and protocols that treats everyone the same. How long were Navarro and Servis doing what they were doing and even then it took the FBI to come in from the outside.
Also, when all the best horses go to the same super trainers, it sure does get boring for the race goer as well, esp. when 3 or 4 horses from same trainer are in the same race...
In other words, it's easy to hate on Baffert, but he is just a syptom. Time to fix this once and for all so that all the hard working people in this industry, as well as the bettors, can enjoy at least a reasonably "level playing field" in the years to come?
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tc
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Post by tc on Sept 12, 2020 20:04:25 GMT -5
The verdict is in. Guilty!
On another note, I have no idea what Jimson weed is and willing to submit to a drug test. Having said that, if I should test positive I'm certain it is due to some kind of contamination in my feed. That is my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Post by tims70ar on Feb 5, 2021 23:00:11 GMT -5
Q. Who wants to drudge up this old subject? A. Me Baffert has been fined $1,500 and the owners of Gamine are to give back 3rd place purse money from the Ky. Oaks. Bloodhorse Article: Gamine DQ at Ky. OaksThere is also this: The Oaks was Gamine's second disqualification of 2020 after she was disqualified from a May 2 allowance optional claiming win at Oaklawn Park due to the presence of lidocaine, a local anesthetic. Her stablemate, Charlatan, was also disqualified from winning a division of that same day's $500,000 Arkansas Derby (G1) for the same medication, results that Baffert believes were from accidental contamination due to one of his employees wearing a pain patch that contained lidocaine. Baffert was issued a 15-day suspension. He has appealed the Arkansas decisions, but will not appeal the Kentucky ruling, Robertson said.I really didn't know which forum to post this. Racing in General, Triple Crown, or Breeder's Cup. These rulings affect all three, not to mention the Eclipse Awards.
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Post by cherokeescot on Feb 5, 2021 23:15:51 GMT -5
Bob Baffert: 6 Kentucky Derby: 7 Preakness:3 Belmont: 3 Breeders Cup Classic D Wayne Lukas: 4 Kentucky Derby: 6 Preakness: 4 Belmont: 1 Breeders Cup Classic Bobby Frankel: 0 Kentucky Derby: 0 Preakness:1 Belmont: 1 Breeders Cup Classic Woody Stephens: 2 Kentucky Derby: 1 Preakness: 5 Belmont:0 Breeders Cup Classic Charlie Whittingham: 2 Kentucky Derby: 1 Preakness: 0 Belmont: 2 Breeders Cup Classic Todd Pletcher: 2 Kentucky Derby: 0 Preakness: 3 Belmont: 1 Breeders Cup Classic Tim , thanks for reviving this thread. I needed to update BB’s record to 4 Breeders Cup Classics 😃
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chuckster1968
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Post by chuckster1968 on Feb 8, 2021 12:12:00 GMT -5
Horse racing has had cheating all throughout its history, whenever money money is involved, why should it not be like any other part of society. Every other trainer your competing against has the same opportunity to either be integral or to try and do the same thing. Just like again many large parts of Business society, improprieties take place and Baffert walks a fine edge. However, the man is part in the top echelons of high society and those multi-millionaires and billionaires who choose to be part of the thoroughbred racing industry. So, he is connected with the money to be able to purchase and develop the best bred around and winning is not the only thing, it is everything and he is the best at what he does and that is produces the best 2-4 year olds around and wins, thus making more money for the clients and the breeding sheds and those around the game money. So, sorry, no matter what people say, he is needed for this game and he is a big part of the face no matter what. Cudos to him... although was sure shocked on how Bezos and Tivorne Twirl ran in their debuts yesterday..
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Post by phlierfreak on Feb 8, 2021 14:37:25 GMT -5
as long as we all can agree..... the horse never cheats or is even consulted about getting an unfair edge.
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1hooper
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Post by 1hooper on Feb 8, 2021 16:52:23 GMT -5
"So, sorry, no matter what people say, he is needed for this game"
Chuckster,I will take the position that integrity in the industry is more important than one individual.
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Post by Badactor on Feb 8, 2021 18:25:07 GMT -5
I'm wondering...
did Tom Williams recuse himself from this question?
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Post by Badactor on Feb 8, 2021 18:40:26 GMT -5
as long as we all can agree..... the horse never cheats or is even consulted about getting an unfair edge. Agree... although some horses can be pretty sneaky.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on Feb 8, 2021 18:47:31 GMT -5
I don't know about best trainer (and won't even address the cheating part) but a helluva good businessman.
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1hooper
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Post by 1hooper on Feb 22, 2021 20:45:18 GMT -5
Some chatter that one of his 3yo's tested positive after his last race. Probably going to take awhile for the split sample testing results.
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tc
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Post by tc on Feb 22, 2021 21:13:17 GMT -5
Some chatter that one of his 3yo's tested positive after his last race. Probably going to take awhile for the split sample testing results. Not again! This guy has some of the worst luck going
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Post by spiderjohn on Feb 23, 2021 8:22:17 GMT -5
Definitely has a good thing that has been going for 20 years.... Stays in Cal., where he seems to have the officials in his pocket. Wins Derbies and Triple Crowns, occasionally with a runner who honestly wasn't eligible to be in the race. Always the media centerpiece--never questioned about possible irregularities. Obviously has top shelf vets and chemists. Has powerful owners providing the best stock. When one goes down or tests positive, three more take their place.
Racing seems fine with it as is...... Though I get tired of backing runners second to those that blast out there and never stop....
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Post by cherokeescot on May 1, 2021 18:32:59 GMT -5
New vote !
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