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Post by unusualpete on Aug 28, 2019 14:15:39 GMT -5
played 9 hours of cash the other day. $1/2 brick and mortar. bi once for 300. this spot happened. it's an 'in a vacuum' cash game spot.
i question if this was good or fishy.
for ease of scene we'll say five people are stacked btw 300 and 600 and five are stacked under 180.
ok pre. deeper(480)stack opens utg+1 to 15. there's folds, calls and no three bets, as is typical in these games. three callers, only one from a shortish(170)stack. it gets to me in the sb holding jj. i start the hand w 370. what would you do? in a vacuum?
this was about 2.5 hrs in and the opener is a loose aggressive young guy. there was 63 in the pot before me. i reraised to 100, 85 more. got one caller. not the opener. so there was 261 in the middle after rake, i think. i had 270 behind. the flop was 9KQ. thought it through and went all in. felt like the hands looking me up are AK(half the time), KQ,AA,KK,QQ,J10,99. five and a half holdings. that's it. i thought, ' if he has it he has it.' realistically, which of those are calling that pre or 'just' calling that, you might ask. felt like 99 folds most of the time pre. felt like KQ J10 are almost always folding and AK might have serious reservations about continuing since all the weak calls have a ton of aces and kings in their holdings. AA, KK, QQ are all 4 bet shoving. felt gross to do, but i did block broadway. that last sentence made me chuckle as i typed it.
yours truly,
fish
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Post by unusualpete on Sept 2, 2019 17:21:21 GMT -5
from a journal entry. warning this is long.
felt the itch so played 9 hours of cash the other day. $1/2 brick and mortar. bi once for 300. this spot happened 2x. in my head like to think i balanced my play, but i'm not a reg anymore and was seriously wandering. like complete aggressive retard wandering. it's an 'in a vacuum' cash game spot. both times i made all in bets that only get called by hands that beat me. doesn't feel like the recipe for success, but idk. they're the only reason i made 3x better than avg hourly, and maybe the only reason i didn't abc my way into a sub 15 an hour session. the first one felt gross as ****. like i was turning a top 3% hand into a bluff, although in retrospect i think i was probably good. the 2nd one felt weak passive pre and scheming aggressive post. at least there i knew i was bluffing. both got folds so...i lived to tell the tale. idk if it's good or bad, but i played both as if i didn't care about getting stacked. believe me i did. inside i was screaming what we've all screamed before. 'please fold!'
for ease of scene we'll say five people are stacked btw 300 and 700 and five are stacked under 180.
hand 1
ok pre. deep(480)stack opens utg+1 to 15. there's folds, calls and no three bets, as is typical in these games. three callers, only one from a shortish(170)stack. it gets to me in the sb holding jacks. table image is tight ag. i start the hand w 370. what would you do? in a vacuum?
this was about 2.5 hrs in. i'd done nothing out of line. and the opener is a loose aggressive young guy. there was 60 in the pot before me. i reraised to 100, 85 more. i thought i'd made it so if i got heads up, which is what i expected if everyone didn't fold outright, i'd have a pot sized shove on the flop. got one caller. not the opener. so there was 245 in the middle after rake, i think. i had 270 behind. he had more. i was a little off. 115 woulda been better. the flop was 9KQ. my first thought was 'i hate this board. i should check fold' my second thought was 'wait. take your time and think. what he might hold?' thought it through and went all in. felt the hands looking me up post flop are AKo(half the time), KQ,AA,KK,QQ,J10,99. five and a half holdings. that's it. felt like those could be reduced down to one and a half. realistically, which of those are calling that pre? or a better question, which of those are not 3 betting the opener AND 'just' calling that pre? felt like 99 mostly folds, but was the one hand i had to fear most. felt like KQ,J10 are almost always folding pre and AK does half the time since all the weak calls have a ton of aces and kings in their holdings and live dudes dislike it. why? you tell me. AA, KK, QQ are all a)3 betting the opener or b)4 bet shoving me. felt gross to do it, but i did block broadway. that last sentence made me chuckle as i typed it. all that and my perceived range is only AAKKQQAKs. only had to fear two hands. 99 and AKo.
approve or dislike? dislike. too risky and vulnerable to variance.
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the 2nd hand was opened by a $580 deep 60yo, overweight, white, mustache, cargo shorts, fishing store ball cap guy. ultra tight player. that and he was utg. he had only shown down literally top 2% hands in 5 hours. i'd been playing for almost 8 and my thinking was improving from earlier, but it's nowhere near where it once was. he'd made two dudes bi again when his AA and KK held all in pre. made some bad too tight folds post flop imo. you've played with this guy. i have about the same, maybe a little more, to start. he opens to 20. big raise for this game. there's two calls from guys who don't have 150 behind so they're probably gonna be hit or miss poker. in the bb i have jacks again, this player is two things. tight and positionally aware. he has a very narrow range here. i was afraid to 3 bet him. there was 60 before me and i made it 80 to the flop. i was speculating w jacks. shameful.
the flop comes out 79Q, two spades. i hold the jack of spades. i check. he cbets 50. the short guys fold. for some reason, i don't wanna give up. i wanna fight for this pot. ever get that way? if i had to give it a word it'd be stubborn. it gets back to me and i take a minute to make a plan. there's a lot of good turn cards that get one pair hands to fold if played ag. there's really only two cards for value, however. you should know. i got caught earlier playing a combination draw that missed. got pretty ag on the flop and turn and lost 200 in the process. i was ip there, so it made more sense. when the board paired river i had to give up and show down. felt proud turning up the 10-9clubs exposing the two way straight draw plus flush draw. fish i am. i guess it was a stupid ego thing. 'they need to know i'll play my semibluffs strong as ****' or something. i digress but germane to this, i block all straight draws and flush draws too. goes back to my coaching. the best bluff spots happen when your own holdings block things. the hands you block are the hands you rep. so i can rep either or both if i want to. if feeling esp frisky i can rep 99, QQ also. i also liked one thing from the earlier jacks hand. i tried to play for pot size, full stack aggression. i wanted to do that here. it was either that or give up now. i decided to put in a check raise to 160. if he shoves i have to fold and take the 180 hit. fine. he didn't like that at all, but eventually called. the best part is the pot was now 400 and he had 400 ish behind. the turn was a good one, probably the best one. an off suit 8. the main hand that i block, i'm repping it, & it ****ing got there! the nit insta folded aces face up.
talked to some regs about the second hand. if it were them w AA, what are they doing? they're putting me in on the flop? letting me keep bluffing at it and snapping me off on the turn, for their entire stack? that's what they said. realistically, probably not. thinking. if it were them, they're opening aces much stronger than 20 utg. they should. you wanna be heads up and ready to bet pot-fold to a shove on the flop. as played, if it were them they're betting 120, pot x 1.5 on the flop. you should. you're only getting called by hands you don't wanna see, but that turn eight no longer scares you, and your decision to give up or continue is easy.
approve or dislike? like. nits are notoriously obv bettors who like to gii good. obv cbet. if nutted he's betting 120-160 prohibiting the chasers. the cr to 160 is good. i can take the hit if he gii, but if he just calls, he's not going the distance unless the gin card peels.
btw, i ran good at this game so even w/o fancy play i probably finish ahead 100, maybe 200 bucks.
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1hooper
UpInClass Steward
Posts: 6,712
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Post by 1hooper on Sept 3, 2019 14:56:53 GMT -5
Pete,how many hours would it take a non poker person to become fairly proficient? Could it be accelerated through computer programs/simulation? Or maybe you need that unteachable skill of reading your opponents.
Hooper
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Post by unusualpete on Sept 4, 2019 9:16:03 GMT -5
fairly proficient implies to me that if you're dealt good cards, say top 10% starters, and folding when you aren't, your play leaves you w better than a 50% chance to leave w more than you came.
in a live game that means you're able to see flops almost twice an hour. online, just two tabling, you're seeing 12 an hour. reckon you could read harrington on hold 'em, apply the fundamentals in the book, play live for 2000 hours and be fairly proficient. if that seems a lot, and it does to me, advise playing two or three tables simultaneously online and you'll get there in under 300 hours.
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Post by cockpit on Sept 4, 2019 21:44:08 GMT -5
Hello Pete. Sorry for the delay in responding. I’ll tackle the first hand in this reply and have to get to the second one tomorrow.
The first thing I have to mention is that the stack sizes in your game are larger than one would usually see in a $1/2 game in my stomping grounds in and around Atlantic City. The max buy in is $300 and maybe 10-20% of players, depending on weekday or weekend, come in for that so it’s rare to see that much money on the table among 10 players. And players in AC are known to play tighter than in other locales. It would be very rare to see a $15 opener from UTG get called by three players. Tight players would be afraid the UTG has AA and fold, and looser and/or aggressive players would reraise instead of call. So......was the player who called your $100 bet the first, second or third player to call the original $15 bet? The ranges I would assign would get quite a bit wider the later in position the player. Somebody immediately following the UTG who would have called $15 and then stayed to call your $100 with two players still to act behind him would almost certainly have KK or QQ where I play. But a player who was in later position and saw the UTG make it $15, then saw two callers, could call with a wide range (any pair, most suited connectors and suited Aces, maybe even KQo) and after your raise and three folds he’s closing the action for $85 more and getting about 2:1. Such a player would probably call your $100 bet with almost anything he felt strong enough to call the original $15.
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Post by unusualpete on Sept 4, 2019 21:55:58 GMT -5
btw hooper, reading your opponents is a skill that's indeed teachable and learnable. hand reading is far more about understanding the situation you're in than it is about looking into your opponents soul. feel like the most dependable live physical tells aren't in their faces, but rather their hands. the way they put the chips out when they're strong and weak are often quite different. many dudes who feel vulnerable will bet their chips literally at you, but when they feel best they place the discs barely in the middle, right in front of themselves. weird, but has happened often enough i felt it worth noting.
the barrier that kept me from becoming fairly proficient in a live setting was allowing the full thought process to complete itself. i used to feel rushed into decisions. i had to learn to slow it down. to think things through. that's something that only came with experience in my case. nobody was rushing me but me.
take a look at both JJ hands from the header post. the amount of time i took. in the first hand i took a good 90 seconds attempting to figure how much a bet with just one caller would leave me a pot size shove behind and still got it wrong. then the flop had a K and Q so it took 20 seconds just to get past the idea it was an insurmountably bad board for my hand and to start ranging the caller and another 90 seconds to conclude i only had to fear 99 and AK. it was another 40 or 50 seconds to surmise he didn't have those often enough to be of negative expectancy value. in the second hand i took 45 seconds deciding i wasn't going to 3 bet this rock preflop. when the board came out i checked inside ten seconds, but took a good long few minutes to come up with a plan which had check raise sizing as it's first priority. the next importance was which turn cards were good or bad for what i had in mind. the good ones in order were 8,J,K,10 or spades. the bad ones were the rest of the deck. the final part of the plan was actions. if he 3 bets the flop in any way i fold and take the hit. if not and a good card falls i shove. if a bad card falls i check fold, but won't be surprised if it goes check check and i get to see the entire runout. if the river is also dry i give up, but have some showdown value if he checks back. took several minutes.
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Post by cockpit on Sept 4, 2019 22:11:57 GMT -5
Pete,how many hours would it take a non poker person to become fairly proficient? Could it be accelerated through computer programs/simulation? Or maybe you need that unteachable skill of reading your opponents. Hooper Hoop, fwiw, over the years I’ve found that a smart and patient player, who already knows enough about poker to play home games with friends, can become a decent $2/4 casino limit player with ten hours or less of coaching. Nobody is getting rich at those stakes but it’s a place to start. As Pete said, it’s about playing good starting hands and using position. That’s if the “student” is willing to listen. Just today I watched from across the poker room as my friend got crushed again in a 2/4 game. He keeps whining about his bad luck when the reality is he can’t fold bad hands. No limit poker takes a lot more time and study to become proficient at. Again, I agree with Pete - 2,000 hours of live poker. But “proficient” is relative to your opponents and that depends on the stakes at which you play. |
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Post by unusualpete on Sept 4, 2019 22:20:56 GMT -5
thanks for the reply cockpit. this was a table full of stations and rocks. the loose aggressive guys only were like that with opening hands. nobody had a 3 betting gear shy of top 3%. JJ+ KQs+ AJs+ AQo+, myself included the first 5 hours. the person who looked me up was the 3rd caller of the three.
i dislike this play. looking back, i've seen guys who have favorite hands they fall in love with and crack plays like this a lot. Q10 whatnot. high variance. loses too often.
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Post by cockpit on Sept 5, 2019 9:33:46 GMT -5
As played, he needs to be a lot more concerned about you holding KK or QQ than you need to be about him having 99 or JTs and I’m not giving it a second thought he has KK or QQ. So, I’d be turning my JJ into a bluff (maybe bluffing with the best hand).
Checking isn’t an option because if you are trying to represent KK, QQ or even AA you wouldn’t be willing to risk giving a free card here. Even if you had JT you should bet out in a 1/2 game to get some money out of someone with AK, KQ, 99, etc and build a pot for a turn bet.
A lot of 1/2 players would shove $270 into a $245 pot with KK or QQ here to “protect their hand” so doing that would likely let you take the pot down. If he has JTs - oh well. And I see a lot of 1/2 players holding 99 there who would convince themselves that you have a better set and will make the laydown. If he has 99 and puts you on AA or KQ and makes the call - another oh well. If you never get caught bluffing then you aren’t bluffing often enough. The pot is laying you almost even money and a shove here is going to take down the pot way more often than half the time at 1/2, so it’s a profitable play.
The last option is to bet an amount that could get a call on the flop and leave you with a stack to shove the turn. This is the option I like best here. A bet of about 1/3 pot, or $80 would get a worse hand to fold and that’s fine because you aren’t getting any more more money out of them anyway unless you give them a free shot to hit a set or something on the turn and then they have you beat and bet. A hand that has you crushed would probably shove over your $80 bet and you can safely fold. And a hand that caught a piece of the flop (AK, QJ, AQ, etc) would likely float you and then you give this player a very tough decision when you shove your remaining $190 on the turn.
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Post by elkurzhal on Sept 5, 2019 14:46:45 GMT -5
hand 1 - rambling thoughts...
opener, even being a loose aggressive young guy, probably has a reasonable hand, given he came in with poor position and a tiny pot.
3 callers - no real mention of any info on the three. first one could have a hand, called with a lot of people behind him though. a premium hand and he probably raises.. next two guys get increasingly better odds and last one could have really anything IMO.
you have position preflop and none post with a lot of people in the hand. only two are likely to have decent hands at the moment. I'd either call and try to catch a huge hand in a 5 way pot, or shove now.
Was the guy who stuck around the 2nd/3rd/4th in? Not really sure it matters much, all seem to represent a drawing hand. opener probably had the 2nd best starting hand behind you IMO. Flop was terrible for you though, and hit a good % of hang around hands. and you have to play it out of position.
check and you don't get any info, but could rep a huge hand looking to trap. free card could bail you out. but your probably going to get bet at and have to decide with no new info really, but you would have his money in the pot if he bluffs, betting first may get the fold, but probably doesn't get any calls from anything you are beating.
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Post by cockpit on Sept 5, 2019 16:20:16 GMT -5
On to the second hand:
That was a great play. Excellent read and knowing how to play the opponent. Good job.
Having said that, your opponent was a truly awful player. I don’t see many of that kind around anymore in AC or in the nearby areas. The very tight old guys (I’m 60 just like your opponent, lol) would rack up and leave rather than sit there with $580 at risk. The moderately tight ones would have either gotten scared and folded to your check raise or gotten married to their AA and reraised you on the flop. The rare player might put you on a draw - either spades, JT, T8 or 86 and just call your flop checkraise, looking for you to bet the turn. That 8 hit only one of those four possible draws so someone who held AA and put you on a draw is probably going to call you on the assumption that it it’s a lot more likely you missed your draw instead of hitting it.
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Post by bobtailnag on Sept 5, 2019 17:18:38 GMT -5
fyi - a few years back MIT offered a credited class course on Poker Theory. It was also offered on line at the same time and as is/was MIT's practice, the on line course was free. I posted this a few months after it was held with a link if anyone was interested and I think Spanky was the only one who at least pulled up the links to take a look. You really need to have some degree of calculus it understand a lot of it. But, if you want to access the course, here it is. I think none of the lab work is included in here.
I forgot add all the other classes. Will get it done in a few minutes.
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Post by unusualpete on Sept 6, 2019 8:54:07 GMT -5
cockpit wrote, "The last option is to bet an amount that could get a call on the flop and leave you with a stack to shove the turn. This is the option I like best here. A bet of about 1/3 pot, or $80 would get a worse hand to fold and that’s fine because you aren’t getting any more more money out of them anyway unless you give them a free shot to hit a set or something on the turn and then they have you beat and bet. A hand that has you crushed would probably shove over your $80 bet and you can safely fold. And a hand that caught a piece of the flop (AK, QJ, AQ, etc) would likely float you and then you give this player a very tough decision when you shove your remaining $190 on the turn."
didn't even consider this. it's a very 'get max value' line of play. gets you one more street most of the time. that alone gives it merit. the argument against is 80 into a 245 pot flop bet is it feels weak and scared. if it's me with top pair or even 2nd pair in position, i'm putting the cbet all in for his stack much of the time. in tournaments i love the line you suggest for early and middle stage play. however, i feel the preflop ag is often far more measured and understated. your decisions in tourneys are largely governed by stack and stage. my agtard cash attitude of 'it feels weak, i must punish' has gotten me stacked some, and is also why i feel incapable of a third pot cbet that's less than the reraise in this spot.
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1hooper
UpInClass Steward
Posts: 6,712
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Post by 1hooper on Sept 6, 2019 14:14:55 GMT -5
Thanks to all that replied to my questions.
Hooper
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Post by unusualpete on Sept 11, 2019 14:02:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the praise regarding the second spot vs super rock. I don't know if I'd call him awful, just very exploitable. Fwiw, he was one of the players who wound up booking a win. There's players like that. Ridiculously strong fold instincts. Over protective of made hands. 'I flopped the top set of kings. My cbet got raised. There's two diamonds on the board. I better put him in right ****** now.' 'I opened w QQ & got three bet. Board is 10 high. He's betting big. I'll call. Turn is small and changes nothing. He barrels. I should fold. Obv has AA KK or TT.'
Coming to realize that if I play again as a reg it's gonna be tournaments. Rarely feel uncomfortable in those. Not easy to describe how lost I felt, much of the time playing 1/2.
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