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Post by unusualpete on Jul 13, 2019 21:52:07 GMT -5
lost my zeal to grind ad nauseum online. don't really compete much at all. i play just a handful of live tournaments a year these days. today was one. here's a key spot. i'd like to know what you would do.
there's 13 of us left and the money bubble is burst at 12 so everybody is playing snugly. blinds are 3k/6k-6k bb ante. i'm bb and probably the chip leader, but nobody's deep. i started the hand w just over 150k. i'm the bb so before a card is dealt i've committed 12k. in the small blind is a 60yo latino man i've sat w for almost 3 hours. i really don't know how his post flop game is, but his pre flop game is aggressive and exploitative. when folded to on the button or the small blind, he raises big, like every time, and gets nothing but folds. he got one out of me earlier in the big blind. i've counted him doing this 7 or 8 times and not once did he bypass his opportunity to do so. i respect this tactic. he played position pre and was abusing the bubble and earlier he was abusing the short stacks. these are skilled methods to accumulate.
ok so it folds around to his small blind and true to form he raises it up to 30k. i look down at A10 off suit. the worst thing i could do is call. if i did there would be 66k to the flop and i'd probably check fold if i didn't make a pair. you see, the point of inflection with stacks this shallow happen earlier. pre or on the flop. no turn or river decisions are in play until you have effective stacks in excess of 210k. he had 120k i had 140k behind.
so that leaves me with two ways to go. i can fold or reraise all in. which way would you go?
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Post by All In on Jul 14, 2019 1:30:51 GMT -5
Go for it. Play your Ace Ten. He'll fold.
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Post by soundsofsaratoga on Jul 14, 2019 3:38:54 GMT -5
Ace10 is a great hand head to head go all in and show the bully you ain’t scared of him
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Post by unusualpete on Jul 14, 2019 11:20:50 GMT -5
spots like these make or break tournaments. you've competed for seven hours and it all comes down to this. if you play it safe and fold you're going to cash, guaranteed. who knows? you might even make a run. if you go for it and reraise all in you're telling everyone including yourself, you're playing to finish first. the problem is you're now vulnerable to missing the money entirely. most recs will make one of two decisions there. a lot of them just call. a lot of them fold. when i was a reg, i told myself to always play for first. why? because i'll never mincash enough to be profitable. regs are volume guys and top 3 runs are where they earn. period. the reason this spot was difficult for me is precisely because i'm a rec now. i liked the idea of auto doubling my buy in.
took a minute or two for my training to prevail. i went all in and he snap called. did he really wake up with a huge hand? i had to turn over cards first and he looked pained. he then turned over K10 suited spades. i held the ace of spades. as a reg i would sit there dreading variance. as a rec i enjoyed a fist pump because i went in as a 70/30 fav. he must've thought me to be just making a move with air.
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shoes
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Post by shoes on Jul 17, 2019 20:33:02 GMT -5
Nice play Pete, good to see it rewarded.
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Post by cockpit on Jul 20, 2019 16:43:06 GMT -5
I play a lot of poker but not many tournaments anymore. I’m pretty sure shoving with AT is optimal there - depending on the size of his stack because you need to have fold equity. If he’s already pot committed a fold on you part is probably correct, because unless you have him dominated you’re no better than a 3:2 favorite and could be behind.
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Post by quickcall on Jul 20, 2019 17:06:47 GMT -5
Hey Pete, Cockpit, or anyone else. I am interested to know what books you would recommend that would give me the knowledge to compete at today’s poker tables, cash and tournaments.
Please share if you have a mind to.
Thanks.
Jeff
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Post by cockpit on Jul 20, 2019 21:53:35 GMT -5
Hi Jeff. Long time
I started to play seriously about 15 years ago and picked up a bunch of books for a few years. If you are moving from recreational play to taking it more seriously David Sklansky’s “theory of poker” would be a good start. But the game has evolved since those books were written and some of the stuff that worked then doesn’t work now.
The internet has changed things since then and the online learning courses are better than the books. If you are familiar with twoplustwo.com there is a forum there that discusses them. I’ve only looked at a few of the free things on a few of them.
Tournament strategy is very different from cash games. That was less true a decade ago but very true today. You have much shorter stack to blond ratios in tournaments and that greatly affects your hand selection and play. Take Pete’s hand above, for an example. You wouldn’t shove against the Small blind with AT in the big blind in a cash game. It make take you a little time to figure which game shouts your natural playing style. But I’d study pick just one to start and hone your skills. Then try the other.
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Post by unusualpete on Jul 21, 2019 1:01:34 GMT -5
i don't play cash very often, so i haven't read a lot on the subject.
there's two tournament books i'd recommend. 'the raiser's edge' and 'kill everyone'
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propro
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Post by propro on Jul 23, 2019 11:20:24 GMT -5
Mike, nice to see you on the forum! Hope all is well. I know you've played a lot of poker and wonder what you would do in Pete's spot if you didn't think he'd fold? I agree with what you posted before, but the opponent certainly wasn't pot committed with KTs and the last thing I'd want for most of my tournament life on the bubble is seeing someone call when I have AT. He could have any two and I still don't want a call.
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Post by elkurzhal on Jul 23, 2019 12:45:10 GMT -5
Agree that it was shove or fold & with your read on his play shove. His snap call basically confirmed your read on his play. I'm guessing he forgot about you and made the call because it was a huge hand for range to make this move.
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Post by unusualpete on Jul 23, 2019 21:30:08 GMT -5
Agree that it was shove or fold & with your read on his play shove. His snap call basically confirmed your read on his play. I'm guessing he forgot about you and made the call because it was a huge hand for range to make this move. well said elk. went back to those books i cited and all the charts say 3 bet shoving is the right play. also based on his track record, they have him doing this with a top 40% range so yes there will be 2 out of every 15 times i 3bs that he has A10 crushed. the rest of the time he should fold. fact is he'd been doing this w garbage and kt was in the top 5% of hands he'd do it with. results: actually held for a change. ace in the window. no sweats through the runout. from there it was smooth sailing with few variance bumps. had a lot of coaching about maintaining a big stack and extending a lead when i was a reg. had a couple of bumps later when short stacks open shoved suited kings and jacks and i snapped em off as the fav but lost. i quickly rebounded to ko others. helped i kept being dealt premium hands. 99+, A10s+. when we got down to four, we made a deal. it was dispursed on icm, or chipstack% vs total chips in play x remaining prizepool x .48 for me. why agree to that? donkaments are too fast. 20m levels. starting stacks are 10k. 108 runners=1,080,000 chips total. blinds were 20k/40k-40kbba. 27bb in play. i had between 12 and 13bb. i was the leader and not deep. i liked the deal. not quite first place money, but close enough. the amount of times variance gets me a worse payout there isn't known, but it's a lot. dealt away 25% of first place, but added 25% over what 2nd woulda paid. |
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Post by spiderjohn on Jul 24, 2019 7:27:04 GMT -5
interesting thread--enjoy the reading
been playing in a monthly game--fairly loose
being a 50yr gambler with prior poker experience helps
also learning bridge--too many rules
aggressive vs non-aggressive
big stack vs little stack
it helps to know your competition
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propro
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Post by propro on Jul 24, 2019 10:00:54 GMT -5
Pete, nice job on the play and the win. Maybe you make more if you play it out, but anything could have happened and it sounds like you made a good decision.
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eye123
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Post by eye123 on Jul 24, 2019 10:22:30 GMT -5
"I really don't know how his post flop game is, but his pre flop game is aggressive and exploitative" With about 10 better starting hands and your assessment of his play(continuation likely)....really your only move there. Nicely done Pete.
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Post by cockpit on Jul 29, 2019 12:34:53 GMT -5
Mike, nice to see you on the forum! Hope all is well. I know you've played a lot of poker and wonder what you would do in Pete's spot if you didn't think he'd fold? I agree with what you posted before, but the opponent certainly wasn't pot committed with KTs and the last thing I'd want for most of my tournament life on the bubble is seeing someone call when I have AT. He could have any two and I still don't want a call. Hi Peter, nice to see you, too. A complete answer to your question gets pretty complicated. What tends to happen is that higher the stakes, the better the skills of the players/opponents and the better their understanding of Game Theory Optimal (GTO) strategy. At low stakes very few have ANY understanding of it. It sounds like Pete was in a low $ buy-in tournament and players can act differently than if the stakes are higher. Based on 12 out of 108 getting paid the payout structure was probably a little flat. So maybe coming in 12th would pay about 1.25 times the buy-in. Imagine three tournaments with the same payout structure but different buy-ins. A) $60 buying and $75 for 12th place. B) $300 buying and $375 for 12th. C) $1,200 buy in and $1,500 for 12th. Even though the payout/buyin ratios are identical the typical recreational player will be usually be more willing to “gamble” on the bubble of the $60 tournament versus the $1,200 one. Once you make the money - if the payout structure is flat, the incremental improvements are small. So, using the examples above you might get something like $75 for 12th, $85 for 11th, $100 10th,...Until you get to the top 3 spots. In such a case 12th pays $75 more than 13th but 11th pays only $10 more than 12th. So, there’s an incentive to make sure you make at least 12th place before you start to take high risks. So........ if there’s 0% chance that the opponent who has me covered in that spot will fold. And I will still have 20 big blinds if I fold, which should safely enable me to make the money, then I would probably fold AT. That’s why fold equity is important. |
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Post by unusualpete on Aug 4, 2019 2:06:51 GMT -5
Fundamentally disagree with playing this particular A10o spot differently in the 135 bi vs how to play it in a 1k bi. You want to be consistent to your coaching. I've busted on the bubble of a 1k bi 200k guaranteed live game. It hurt like hell, but the fact was I played for first. I flopped top set on a wet board and induced a shove from the chip leader in hopes of instead it being me the 110bb deep chip leader on the bubble. He had 33% equity with two streets to go and got there. It was the right play and wrong result. Good players bubble a lot. Bad players mincash a lot.
Truth be told, every game I've ever won happened in part cuz I got there as a heavy dog just like that chip leader did. For example, earlier in the 135bi last month, there was a key hand when we were deeper, like 3 hours in and 80bb effective. Loose aggressive 25ish guy opens his button 2.5x. In the small blind holding A4o, I 3 bet him to 7.5bb. First light 3 bet of the game. He calls. Flop comes out jack high disorganized. No pair, no draw. Still I cbet 8bb. He calls. Turn hits me with a 4. It goes check check, thankfully. River is another 4. I lead out with a 25bb river bet. He clicks it back leaving 10bb behind. I put him in and he calls holding AJ. Dumb luck.
Tournament strategy is primarily about position and effective stack sizes. When coached up you know the optimal play for all sizes and stages of the game from most positions. When not, you struggle with a lot of spots. That's where I am today. I had a ton of trouble just trying to figure out pot size. I'm your typical live fish. Feels like I won it just cuz I ran good.
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spanky
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Post by spanky on Aug 4, 2019 6:59:25 GMT -5
Has anyone seen the movie Molly's Game? I think it's a good show about poker. Not in the class of The Cincinatti Kid but a nice film. I'm curious if anyone plays in a weekly poker game with friends and if so what games you play. I still play from time to time with friends where we play dealer choice. Just a friendly dollar limit with a 5 buck limit on stud games. I liked Rounders as well.
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Post by cockpit on Aug 10, 2019 14:05:45 GMT -5
Has anyone seen the movie Molly's Game? I think it's a good show about poker. Not in the class of The Cincinatti Kid but a nice film. I'm curious if anyone plays in a weekly poker game with friends and if so what games you play. I still play from time to time with friends where we play dealer choice. Just a friendly dollar limit with a 5 buck limit on stud games. I liked Rounders as well. I recently read the book and will get around to the movie someday. The book isn’t a literary classic but it was entertaining, especially for an avid poker player. I’ve had no luck trying to get a friendly home game going. If I could get one going I’d play hi/low limit Omaha - you get dealt lots of playable hands and the hi/low aspect lets everybody win enough pots. |
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spanky
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Post by spanky on Aug 10, 2019 17:41:44 GMT -5
We play tons of Omaha in our friendly game! Love that game. Lots of stud poker, 7 card mostly. We like to play 7 card stud Chicago high or low. Low spade in the hole splits with high hand. Or you can win both ways!
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Post by unusualpete on Aug 12, 2019 15:13:26 GMT -5
i make mistakes. not a reg. since i won a month ago, it fueled a hunger to repeat. decided to reg another over the weekend. was making a run thanks to quad 4's vs boat vs boat and also thanks to winning flips 10's vs aq and 9's vs ak.
the good. big fold. 50-100, effective stacks are 15k.
two people just call. in the cutoff i hold two black kings. i raise pretty big to 650. both limpers call. 2100 to the flop.
flop is KT6 two clubs. i cbet 1500. both players call. 6600 to the turn.
turn is the 9 of clubs KT69 three clubs. first limper bets 600. and is called by both of us. really? less than 10% of the pot? took a lot not to spazz raise.
8400 to the river.
river is an offsuit 3 which changes nothing. KT693 three spades. same dude leads 800. the next guy raised to 2800. thought a long time. folded kkk on the river w a semi coordinated board and a bet and raise in front of me. i held the king of clubs blocker too. after my fold the initial bettor reraised all in, was called and both had flushes.
the bad. these games are so fast that you feel the need to keep accumulating. it was with that mindset i made errors. i count three times where i was using push fold strategy incorrectly. twice because i was stupidly reversing roles. once because i was desperate. if it folds to your 35bb deep button and the blinds are both 8-12bb deep you should really be in minraise/fold mode with top 40ish% hands. did i do that? no. i put them all in. did it with what i should've been going in with if i was the one who had 10bb from the button, not to them in the blinds. J8o and T9s lost me 70% of my stack. thinking about it later, it's easier to call off an all in than it is to reraise all in. all bad. switched tables when down to 18, like 6 from the mincash. now i'm the one with 10bb on the button. folds to me holding 98o, which is sub the top 40ish% needed to go in, but i went for it and was eliminated.
fish.
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Post by spiderjohn on Aug 15, 2019 16:17:09 GMT -5
ok sharpies--help me out....
we have a once a month tournament at my club where we started allowing friends of members which has evolved to word of mouth.
made to final table Tuesday(7 players--top 4 paid). Was somewhat short-stacked facing extinction with large blinds--me being bb. Was holding 55 when loose before me new guy went all in(others dropped). I figured this to hopefully be my lucky shot, when he flipped over A10 unsuited. Ended up catching nothing with last two cards being 10 10. Next hand, he goes all in again, with me holding A10. He flips over 77 and that holds up--I am out.
How would you have done this differently?
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Post by unusualpete on Aug 16, 2019 3:59:22 GMT -5
wouldn't change a thing spider. you did it right, but to win tournaments you've also gotta win the all in pre coin flips along the way. go google push fold ranges. a chart by jonathan little will display the optimal strategy. it's looser than you might think. the general premise is the further from the dealer button you are, the tighter you are. the closer you are, the looser.
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Post by spiderjohn on Aug 16, 2019 11:03:20 GMT -5
thanx pete--thought so based on discussion above--was cold all night anyway
my philosophy is to play very tight early with low blinds/bets in order to keep ammo for the bigger pots--let the others carve up each other---right idea?
by my gambling nature, I am somewhat aggressive otherwise
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Post by spiderjohn on Aug 16, 2019 11:04:09 GMT -5
thanx pete--thought so based on discussion above--was cold all night anyway
my philosophy is to play very tight early with low blinds/bets in order to keep ammo for the bigger pots--let the others carve up each other chasing--right idea?
by my gambling nature, I am somewhat aggressive otherwise
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Post by unusualpete on Aug 16, 2019 13:50:56 GMT -5
i don't think so spider. your game needs to play best against different kinds of players, effective stack sizes and different stages. the strategy put forth above is exploitable. if you research just a bit, you'll see why. what is the buy in at these games? how long are the levels? 20, 30, 40m or an hour? here's some real talk. in fast games, you can have a distinct skill edge that's easily and often negated by the structure. thinking you're probably in a 20m per level game. in those you'll need to take and win a lot of flips. embrace the variance. 110-330 bi's almost always have those. it costs more to get more minutes. you don't get 30 til you bi for 440. you don't get 40 til you bi for 550. an hour will cost you 880 min. fear not. there's a number of online resources to help you. best tournament training site for my money was www.runitonce.com i don't know if they have training section for low bi live tournaments though. and then there's jonathanlittlepoker.com/ little is a decent pro w an incredible resume. however, everything about him screams 'standard'. standard wins a lot at the lowest levels where we reside. therefore he's useful. check out the book, kindle or audio book called, "Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Tournaments" you can maybe find it for free. |
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spanky
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Post by spanky on Aug 16, 2019 20:50:00 GMT -5
Reading these posts take me back to Amarillo Slim and makes me wonder what Slim would make of poker these days. Slim was an original and quite the hustler.
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Post by spiderjohn on Aug 16, 2019 23:21:32 GMT -5
I get it , Pete—logic and %s remain constant at all levels.
Personality and comfort level factor also
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Post by cockpit on Aug 17, 2019 17:08:50 GMT -5
Reading these posts take me back to Amarillo Slim and makes me wonder what Slim would make of poker these days. Slim was an original and quite the hustler. Great question. I think he’d be a little disappointed at the way many of the “pros” conduct themselves. From the highest to lowest levels they’ve made the game less enjoyable for the casual player and chased away a lot of business. |
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spanky
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Post by spanky on Aug 18, 2019 6:35:41 GMT -5
I recall the first time I met Slim on a flight from here to Vegas. We sat across from each other and Slim was a tall thin man with snakeskin boots on. He wore a Cowboy hat that had a hat band with a rattlesnake head attached to it. The snakes mouth was open with fangs showing and Slim talked about his hat band was made from this snake. Quite a character and I think he could hang with any current players playing. We shared a few beers and chatted about poker. Slim still has a pool hall here in Amarillo run by his family.
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